Semantic drift: "khaki"

Wilson Gray hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Wed Sep 19 21:16:08 UTC 2007 

Well. that's it, then. Khaki is chino in color. ;-)

-Wilson

On 9/19/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Semantic drift: "khaki"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OED surprisingly lacks "chino" as an adj., though I'm in agreement with Wilson that "chino" and "khaki" are more or less the same color, "chino" being closer to a very light gray - if I had to say.  Neither khaki nor chino, to me, can typically have any noticeable green in it. That would make it "greenish khaki," or whatever.
>
>   OED's def. of "chino," n., indirectly supports the color ref.: "A cotton twill cloth, usu. khaki in colour." The primary ex. is from as late as 1943.
>
>   JL
>
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>   ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The color of the tan shirts worn with the old "Army green" woolen
> class-A uniform, ca.1958-1968, was officially designated "suntan." To
> the casual glance, it was clearly not the same color as khaki.
> Nevertheless, it was permitted to wear the shirt from the khaki
> uniform with the greens. I'm completely unfamiliar the terms "class B"
> and "class C," but this doesn't mean that these were not official
> terms. The Army-green uniform was rarely - so seldom that I've found
> out that this was an official term only this week - referred to as
> "class A," but the others were uniformly referred to as
> "khakis" and as "fatigues" by the troops. There was also a Marine
> Corps-like uniform known as "dress blues," but I've seen it only in
> pictures, worn by officers and high-ranking NCO's on official
> occasions. Info from Google seems to imply that the Army-green class-A
> uniform is soon to be replaced by a new Army-blue class-A uniform
> distinct from the (now-obsolete?) dress-blue uniform.
>
> FWIW, "Khaki" and "chino" are the same color to me.
>
> -Wilson
>
> -Wilson
>
> On 9/16/07, Dave Wilton wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Dave Wilton
> > Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki"
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Yes, I interpret this as a reference to the summer khaki (tan) uniform, not
> > the green "Class A" uniform. Khakis were often worn with a tie and jacket
> > ("blouse" in army parlance) and the cut would have been almost identical to
> > the green uniform, differing only in color and weight of material. The use
> > of "dress" is probably to distinguish it from the green fatigue uniform.
> > Khakis could be worn when traveling, especially to and from Vietnam. Also,
> > the Louisville incident doesn't give a date, but if it was in summer it
> > reinforces the idea that this is the uniform he's describing.
> >
> > There's an image of the US Vietnam-era khaki uniform on this page:
> > http://www.merhabaturkey.com/1BARTLEYMindex.html
> >
> > But while searched Google Images for that, I also ran across this, a Reuters
> > photo in China Daily of a soldier in camouflage uniform described as wearing
> > "khaki." Although, at least one of the colors appears to be khaki:
> > http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-04/02/content_841908.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> > Jonathan Lighter
> > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:29 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki"
> >
> > It's possible, Dave, but is the context right? Is it just a slip?:
> >
> > 2005 Larry Heinemann _Black Virgin Mountain_ (N.Y.: Doubleday) 13 [ref.
> > to 1965-66]: In Louisville...Saturdays the hotel is packed with...GIs in
> > ill-fitting dress khakis. _Ibid._ 47: That fall, at Fort Knox, my name comes
> > down on the levy for Vietnam; I get orders and a month's home leave [to
> > Chicago]; February. The morning I am to leave for San Francisco...
> > I am packed and tricked out in my dress khakis when [my brother] arrives
> > at the door.
> >
> > I would never second-guess Heinemann on something like this, but the use
> > of "khakis" struck me.
> >
> > And Scot, AFAIK, when "khakis" refers to military uniforms,the ref. is
> > always to the color, not the material. The Navy and Marines still have some
> > true "khakis."
> >
> > JL
> >
> > Dave Wilton wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Dave Wilton
> > Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki"
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---
> >
> > IIRC, the US Army abandoned its tropical/summer khaki uniforms in the early
> > 1980s, leaving only the olive-drab uniform. I would suspect that if the
> > meaning shifted it would be after this date, at least in American usage.
> >
> > During the 60s and 70s there was a true US Army khaki uniform, which would
> > have been worn in tropical Vietnam. Perhaps Heinemann is referring to the
> > true khaki uniform and this is being misinterpreted.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> > Michael Quinion
> > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:43 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki"
> >
> > Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >
> > > Just what color do people understand nowadays by "khaki"? All my life
> > I've
> > > subscribed to the def. of the OED: "dust-coloured; dull brownish yellow,
> > > drab," a kind of light to medium beige.
> > >
> > > Recently, though, I've noticed writers using "khaki" to designate the
> > > much darker brown, formerly used for U.S. Army uniforms (as in World
> > > War I) and usually designated "olive drab." Now I find Vietnam veteran
> > > Larry Heinemann (in _Black Virgin Mountain_) referring to the dark
> > > "olive-green" Army "service uniform" of the '60s as "khakis." Surely
> > > Heinemann knows better - or my memory is slipping.
> >
> > I noticed this some years ago and indeed used it as the lead-in to a piece
> > about the slippery values of some colour names. See
> >
> > http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/colour.htm
> >
> > As I say there, to me khaki is sandy-brown. This was the colour of British
> > Army uniforms in my extreme youth, just after WW2, when being "in khaki"
> > meant being in the Army. An olive-green colour is what today's fashion
> > writers mean by the word. It seems to have changed through the word being
> > retained for the colour of army uniforms while the colour of the uniforms
> > has changed.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michael Quinion
> > Editor, World Wide Words
> > E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org
> > Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org
> >
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All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
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