Rosa/rowz@

Wed Apr 23 05:44:25 UTC 2008

Paul,

Thanks for your nice tone in your post even though we disagree.  Call me a doubting thomas, but I do close listening to sounds and can't bring myself to say that long vowels (the kind that take silent e) are diphthongs as a general rule.  This can change due to what consonants come after a long vowel.  For instance in saying "mail" the tongue makes a big move to the "l" and a glide is pronounced.  But off-glides I would believe should not be considered a part of the vowel.  For instance, I believe I can say each long vowel and chop off the ending such that it is one phthong that is recognizable as a long vowel.  Thus it's not a diphthong.  You can't do that with a diphthong.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:50:54 -0400
> From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Paul Johnston
> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'd say (1) "historically long" for your "long", since in most (not
> all) American dialects, vowel length depends more on phonetic context
> than on historical class, or at least as MUCH as historical class;
> (2) yes, Tom, unless you're from some place like the Upper Midwest,
> most "long" vowels ARE diphthongal, at least in citation form (lento
> speech). Certainly the vowels in NAME and COAT in most dialects. If
> you're living in New Jersey, you're familiar with dialects, like
> mine, that have diphthongs for final /i u/ as in TREE and DO. And a
> lot of American historically "short" vowels can be diphthongal too,
> in the South AND North. In the South, in words like man,
> triphthongal even. And one of the classes I teach is in phonetics,
> and I've been working with phonetic data since 1971. If you like, I
> can even show you sound spectrograms. Sorry, that's just facts. I'm
> not putting you down, though I wonder why you argue the point when
> there isn't a single soul who DOES work with phonetic data on this
> list who agrees with you on this subject. The most I'll concede to
> you is that in rapid speech or in low-stress environments, underlying
> diphthongs can get shortened to monophthongs, but all kinds of
> exotica emerge under these conditions. But in citation forms, the
> sort of things you deal with with your dictionary representations?
> No way.
>
> Yours,
> Paul Johnston
> On Apr 22, 2008, at 6:09 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> What do you mean "Why would I say something like that? Why would
>> you say "why would I say something like that?"
>>
>> I'm familiar enough with phonetics for my application. I'm not a
>> linguist, but anybody can gather much information from the internet
>> on phonetics.
>>
>> People that reply to questions of interest with "go read a book"
>> are in my opinion abusive, supplying no anwer, offering nothing but
>> derision.
>>
>> Do you believe that all long vowels in USA English are diphthongs?
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
>> at authorhouse.com.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:31:01 +0800
>>> From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: LanDi Liu
>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> Tom, honestly, why would you say something like that?
>>>
>>> And WHY are you so opposed to taking any phonetics courses, or even
>>> reading even any of the most basic phonetics textbooks?
>>>
>>> WHY???
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>> P.S. And if you're really going to take an attitude like that, WHY do
>>> you have to do it here, of all places?
>>>
>>>
>>> Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----------
>>>>
>>>> Why don't you take some classes and let us know what your teacher
>>>> says. Remember, trust what your teacher says, not what you hear
>>>> or think.
>>>>
>>>> And do you agree with MAM that all long vowels in American
>>>> English are two-phthonged? Why don't you give us your own voice
>>>> files as I have done here with qlippits to demonstrate. Or take a
>>>> class and find out how.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
>>>> Poems" at authorhouse.com.
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:33:10 -0700
>>>>> From: blukoff at ALVORD.COM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Benjamin Lukoff
>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------------
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe off-glides are part of diphthongs such as
>>>>>> for the long vowels. Off glides happen before some consonants
>>>>>> and not
>>>>>> before others. To me all long vowels sound like one-phthong not
>>>>>> two.
>>>>>> I'd be glad to hear words spoken in m-w.com that illustrate the
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located? Perhaps a phonetics class at your local
>>>>> university
>>>>> would help.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also remember some IPA training software from the 90s which would
>>>>> pronounce each sound alone and in context.
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically, the key is ear training.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Randy Alexander
>>> Jilin City, China
>>>
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>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
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