NS > NTS (was: Re: "war" [wor])

Wilson Gray hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Mon Aug 25 02:57:34 UTC 2008 

I agree. And I also see why you'd want to do it. I once taught myself
the German and better-class Dutch (the camp-follower class of Dutch
chicks who hung out with GI's visiting The Dam merely to get laid used
the Spanish-style trilled /r/) uvular /r/ just because I felt like it.
The Germans appeared to be willing to accept a kind of uvularized
English /w/ in place of the real German /r/ and The Netherlands has
the reputation of being the most English-speaking European country
outside of the British Isles, so there was no pressure. Indeed, I
didn't even get that /r/ down pat till I'd been back in The World for
about a year.

-Wilson

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: NS > NTS (was: Re: "war" [wor])
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> NIce observation. When I listened to this, the sound I was hearing was
> the moraic N of Japanese, which is generally nasalized if not
> assimilated. It might be fair to say his pronunciation falls into this
> category, but nasalized /i/ is probably a better description. Perhaps
> he has some background in French or familiarity with an English
> dialect that keeps the distinction.
>
> As to why you would want to disambiguate ns/ts, it was mainly
> curiosity. My professor told us years ago that there is a dialect that
> does so. At the time, I had serious doubts about his claim, but now I
> wish I had inquired more about that dialect. More recently, I began to
> wonder if they could be auditorily distinguished. After quite a bit of
> practice, I can disambiguate at will and found that the pronunciations
> are very distinct once you know how to listen. BB
>
> On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:48 AM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
>>
>> FWIW, Benjamin, it sounds to me that Roel "cheats." That is, he merely
>> nasalizes the /i/ instead of fully articulating the /n/. Nevertheless,
>> I do believe that it's possible to pronounce /ns/ as [ns]. Indeed, I
>> believe (my experience has been that you have to listen to yourself on
>> tape, if you want to hear what your speech *really* sounds like) that
>> *I* can disambiguate "prince" and "prints" by pronouncing them
>> differently: [prIns] vs. [prInts]. But why? The two words always occur
>> in completely different contexts. It would be like teaching oneself to
>> distinguish "leach" from "leech" by pronouncing the former as [liItS]
>> or some such. Most people wouldn't notice and most of those who did
>> notice wouldn't care.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 2:18 AM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>> > wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
>>> Subject:      NS > NTS (was: Re: "war" [wor])
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> That reminds me: in the not-too-distance past, TZ argued that there
>>> is
>>> no "t" sound in words like "since" and "prince."
>>>
>>> My first phonetics professor held that there is a prestige dialect
>>> that maintains the "ns" pronunciation, thus differentiating "prince"
>>> from "prints" (a pursuit that TZ should be greatly interested in). I
>>> recently found a great example, pronounced by the Netherlander pop
>>> singer Roel van Velzen in "When Summer Ends." The song video can be
>>> seen (and heard) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWkBMbhAYPM. It
>>> starts right off with his t-less pronunciation of "since".
>>>
>>> Is this a feature of Dutch, or is it something he more likely learned
>>> in school? BB
>>>
>>> On Aug 14, 2008, at 11:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>>>
>>>> His point seems merely to be that the term is a misnomer because it
>>>> does not adequately describe what it does.
>>>>
>>>> There seems to be nothing wrong with the term "minimally different
>>>> phonetic pair" except that it is not the jargon used in actual
>>>> practice. His comment seems to be aimed at stirring up trouble.
>>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
>>>> for a description of such behavior. BB
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:59 PM, LanDi Liu wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To be a little more specific to the neophyte (TZ), "minimal pair"
>>>>> is a
>>>>> technical term that describes two words (a "pair") that have a very
>>>>> small pronunciation difference; for ex. "shit" and "sheet".
>>>>> Minimal
>>>>> pairs are heavily used in ESL teaching to help learners distinguish
>>>>> between words that sound similar to non native speakers: "Your
>>>>> sheet
>>>>> is on my bed" vs "Your shit is on my bed".
>>>>>
>>>>> "Pair" and "dare" are not minimal pairs because the difference ([p]
>>>>> vs
>>>>> [d]) involve different places of articulation, so the difference is
>>>>> not "minimal".
>>>>>
>>>>> "Shit" and "sheet" are minimal pairs because both vowels are high
>>>>> front vowels, with the second higher and fronter than the first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Randy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Gordon, Matthew J.
>>>>> <GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster:       "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "war" [wor]
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimal pair is exactly what Charlie is describing since he
>>>>>> maintains =
>>>>>> the historical distinction between the vowels of 'for' and 'four'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>> Sent: Thu 8/14/2008 9:32 PM
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "war" [wor]
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Minimal pair is actually a misnomer.  It should be minimally
>>>>>> different =
>>>>>> phonetic pair.  It's the case where one sound is different, such
>>>>>> as pair =
>>>>>> and dare.
>>>>>>
>>> On Aug 14, 2008, at 11:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>>>
>>>> His point seems merely to be that the term is a misnomer because it
>>>> does not adequately describe what it does.
>>>>
>>>> There seems to be nothing wrong with the term "minimally different
>>>> phonetic pair" except that it is not the jargon used in actual
>>>> practice. His comment seems to be aimed at stirring up trouble.
>>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
>>>> for a description of such behavior. BB
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:59 PM, LanDi Liu wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To be a little more specific to the neophyte (TZ), "minimal pair"
>>>>> is a
>>>>> technical term that describes two words (a "pair") that have a very
>>>>> small pronunciation difference; for ex. "shit" and "sheet".
>>>>> Minimal
>>>>> pairs are heavily used in ESL teaching to help learners distinguish
>>>>> between words that sound similar to non native speakers: "Your
>>>>> sheet
>>>>> is on my bed" vs "Your shit is on my bed".
>>>>>
>>>>> "Pair" and "dare" are not minimal pairs because the difference ([p]
>>>>> vs
>>>>> [d]) involve different places of articulation, so the difference is
>>>>> not "minimal".
>>>>>
>>>>> "Shit" and "sheet" are minimal pairs because both vowels are high
>>>>> front vowels, with the second higher and fronter than the first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Randy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Gordon, Matthew J.
>>>>> <GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster:       "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "war" [wor]
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimal pair is exactly what Charlie is describing since he
>>>>>> maintains =
>>>>>> the historical distinction between the vowels of 'for' and 'four'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>> Sent: Thu 8/14/2008 9:32 PM
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "war" [wor]
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Minimal pair is actually a misnomer.  It should be minimally
>>>>>> different =
>>>>>> phonetic pair.  It's the case where one sound is different, such
>>>>>> as pair =
>>>>>> and dare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
>>>>>> Poems" at =
>>>>>> authorhouse.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:51:32 -0400
>>>>>>> From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "war" [wor]
>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Charles Doyle
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "war" [wor]
>>>>>>> =
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes; "for"/"four" are a minimal pair!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Charlie
>>>>>>> _____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> -----
>> -Mark Twain
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Mark Twain

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