twoth

[Laurence Horn]

At 11:21 AM -0500 1/24/08, Wilson Gray wrote:
>So, in Esperanto, one asks "how many-th?"? Why? How is the answer
>constructed? I don't get it. Am I being stupid, here/ Or do i merely
>lack sufficient background - any - in Esperanto?

It would presumably be the same as "combien(t)ieme" in the French
examples below:  that's the 9th subject, he was the 42nd president,
etc. etc.  Presumably also you can get the same kind of embedded
ordinal question in Esp-o as in the French example ("for the
I-don't-know-how-manyth time").

LH

>
>And, WRT "ki," you mean "Romance," not "I-E," right?
>
>-Wilson
>
>
>
>On 1/24/08, Mark Mandel <thnidu at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Mark Mandel <thnidu at GMAIL.COM>
>>  Subject:      Re: twoth
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  The Esp-o word needs no specific analogical etymology. There's a whole grid
>>  of function words, generalizing from patterns like English
>>  "here/there/where", "__/then/when", "__/that/what":
>>
>>     - begin with 'ki' for relative or interrogative (definite I-E bias
>>     there), 'ti' for demonstrative, 'i' for indefinite, 'neni' for negative,
>>     'c^i' for universal (c-circumflex, [tS], English "ch")
>>     - add 'u' for individual, 'e' for place, 'a' for quality, 'om' for
>>     quantity, ... nine in all
>>
>>  So kiom 'how many/much', nenie 'nowhere', c^iu 'everyone, every one' (+/-
>>  animate), tia 'that kind (of), such' and so on. And since you can
>>  productively add the appropriate POS ending to any stem, kiom + the
>>  adjective ending -a -> kioma 'how many-th'.
>>
>>  m a m
>>
>>  On Jan 24, 2008 9:47 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  > At 9:28 AM -0500 1/24/08, Mark Mandel wrote:
>>  > >How common is it in natural languages to have an ordinal interrogative
>>  > word?
>>  > >Esperanto has "kioma", derived by adjectivizing "kiom"  'how much/many"?
>>  > >
>>  > >m a m
>>  >
>>  > Presumably this arose by analogy with French and
>>  > other Romance languages (the main source for
>>  > Esperanto).  I note 106 google hits for
>>  > _combieni=E8me_ with this meaning and derivation,
>>  > as in
>>  >
>>  > Ca fait le combienieme sujet sur le genre?
>>  >
>>  > Mettons, que pour la j'sais pas combieni=E8me fois,
>>  > j'ai utilis=E9 le bouton "=E9diter ce message" au
>>  > lieu de "r=E9pondre =E0 ce message"
>>  >
>>  > c'est ton combienieme match?
>>  >
>>  > And the "less logical" but "more correct" form,
>>  > _combienti=E8me_ (with epenthetic -t-) gets 2250
>>  > hits (e.g. "Bill Clinton est le combienti=E8me
>>  > pr=E9sident des =C9tats-Unis?" and an appearance in
>>  > this blog on the topic:
>>  > http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-418730.html
>>  > (Respondents to this blog contribute
>>  > interrogative ordinals in Swedish, German,
>>  > Finnish, Turkish, Tagalog, etc.)
>>  >
>>  > LH
>>  >
>>  > >
>>  > >On Jan 17, 2008 8:48 PM, Bill Le May <blemay0 at mchsi.com> wrote:
>>  > >
>>  > >>  > -----Original Message-----
>>  > >>  > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>>  > Behalf
>>  > >>  > Of Joel S. Berson
>>  > >>  > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:42 AM
>>  > >>  > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  > >>  > Subject: Re: twoth
>>  > >>
>>  > >>  > Thank heaven this is not likely to lead to oneth and thirdth.  (If =
>>  I
>>  > >>  > come across speakers of these, I won't stand too close.)
>>  > >>
>>  > >>  In childhood I remember saying "what-th". Wondering the day of the
>>  > month,
>>  > >>  I
>>  > >>  would ask a parent "what day is it" and inevitably get an answer like
>>  > >>  "Wednesday". Frustrated, I'd reply, "No, I mean today is that what-th
>>  > of
>>  > >>  January?"
>>  > >>
>>  > >>  No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>  > >>  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>  > >>  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6/1229 - Release Date:
>>  > 1/17/2008
>>  > >>  11:12 AM
>>  > >>
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