twoth
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Thu Jan 24 20:50:51 UTC 2008
Thanks, Larry. Strange. I often say, "I've [V-ed (NP)] for the
I-don't-know-how-many-eth time." But I can't ask, "For the
how-many-eth time has this been done?" Though I may begin to, now that
I've thought of it. It seems grammatical enough for government work.
It'll freak out most people that I know.
Unfortunately, the French examples aren't much help for me. I've never
seen anything like those, before. Most foreign languages that I know I
can read only in linguistics. Once past the words borrowed directly
from Latin, Greek, and English, I get lost. But I appreciate the
effort.
-Wilson
On 1/24/08, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject: Re: twoth
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 11:21 AM -0500 1/24/08, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >So, in Esperanto, one asks "how many-th?"? Why? How is the answer
> >constructed? I don't get it. Am I being stupid, here? Or do i merely
> >lack sufficient background - any - in Esperanto?
>
> It would presumably be the same as "combien(t)ieme" in the French
> examples below: that's the 9th subject, he was the 42nd president,
> etc. etc. Presumably also you can get the same kind of embedded
> ordinal question in Esp-o as in the French example ("for the
> I-don't-know-how-manyth time").
>
> LH
>
> >
> >And, WRT "ki," you mean "Romance," not "I-E," right?
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >
> >
> >On 1/24/08, Mark Mandel <thnidu at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: Mark Mandel <thnidu at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject: Re: twoth
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> The Esp-o word needs no specific analogical etymology. There's a whole grid
> >> of function words, generalizing from patterns like English
> >> "here/there/where", "__/then/when", "__/that/what":
> >>
> >> - begin with 'ki' for relative or interrogative (definite I-E bias
> >> there), 'ti' for demonstrative, 'i' for indefinite, 'neni' for negative,
> >> 'c^i' for universal (c-circumflex, [tS], English "ch")
> >> - add 'u' for individual, 'e' for place, 'a' for quality, 'om' for
> >> quantity, ... nine in all
> >>
> >> So kiom 'how many/much', nenie 'nowhere', c^iu 'everyone, every one' (+/-
> >> animate), tia 'that kind (of), such' and so on. And since you can
> >> productively add the appropriate POS ending to any stem, kiom + the
> >> adjective ending -a -> kioma 'how many-th'.
> >>
> >> m a m
> >>
> >> On Jan 24, 2008 9:47 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> > At 9:28 AM -0500 1/24/08, Mark Mandel wrote:
> >> > >How common is it in natural languages to have an ordinal interrogative
> >> > word?
> >> > >Esperanto has "kioma", derived by adjectivizing "kiom" 'how much/many"?
> >> > >
> >> > >m a m
> >> >
> >> > Presumably this arose by analogy with French and
> >> > other Romance languages (the main source for
> >> > Esperanto). I note 106 google hits for
> >> > _combieni=E8me_ with this meaning and derivation,
> >> > as in
> >> >
> >> > Ca fait le combienieme sujet sur le genre?
> >> >
> >> > Mettons, que pour la j'sais pas combieni=E8me fois,
> >> > j'ai utilis=E9 le bouton "=E9diter ce message" au
> >> > lieu de "r=E9pondre =E0 ce message"
> >> >
> >> > c'est ton combienieme match?
> >> >
> >> > And the "less logical" but "more correct" form,
> >> > _combienti=E8me_ (with epenthetic -t-) gets 2250
> >> > hits (e.g. "Bill Clinton est le combienti=E8me
> >> > pr=E9sident des =C9tats-Unis?" and an appearance in
> >> > this blog on the topic:
> >> > http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-418730.html
> >> > (Respondents to this blog contribute
> >> > interrogative ordinals in Swedish, German,
> >> > Finnish, Turkish, Tagalog, etc.)
> >> >
> >> > LH
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >On Jan 17, 2008 8:48 PM, Bill Le May <blemay0 at mchsi.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > >> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> >> > Behalf
> >> > >> > Of Joel S. Berson
> >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:42 AM
> >> > >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> > >> > Subject: Re: twoth
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Thank heaven this is not likely to lead to oneth and thirdth. (If =
> >> I
> >> > >> > come across speakers of these, I won't stand too close.)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> In childhood I remember saying "what-th". Wondering the day of the
> >> > month,
> >> > >> I
> >> > >> would ask a parent "what day is it" and inevitably get an answer like
> >> > >> "Wednesday". Frustrated, I'd reply, "No, I mean today is that what-th
> >> > of
> >> > >> January?"
> >> > >>
> >> > >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> > >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6/1229 - Release Date:
> >> > 1/17/2008
> >> > >> 11:12 AM
> >> > >>
> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Sam'l Clemens
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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