twoth

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Thu Jan 24 21:31:12 UTC 2008


At 3:50 PM -0500 1/24/08, Wilson Gray wrote:
>Thanks, Larry. Strange. I often say, "I've [V-ed (NP)] for the
>I-don't-know-how-many-eth time." But I can't ask, "For the
>how-many-eth time has this been done?" Though I may begin to, now that
>I've thought of it. It seems grammatical enough for government work.
>It'll freak out most people that I know.
>
>Unfortunately, the French examples aren't much help for me. I've never
>seen anything like those, before. Most foreign languages that I know I
>can read only in linguistics. Once past the words borrowed directly
>from Latin, Greek, and English, I get lost. But I appreciate the
>effort.
>

They work like this [accents have been removed]:

c'est ton    combienieme   match?
it's   your  how-manyth   match?

Si le cinema est le 7eme art le cirque est  le combientieme?
if  the cinema is the 7th  art the circus is  the how-manyth?
[i.e. ...whichth art is the circus?
one answer is:  "it's the first lol"; another:  "the eighth"]

This one also from Yahoo! questions:

Le combientieme soir   couchez-vous     en général?
the how-manyth  night do you go to bed in general

to which the "Best answer, as chosen by the voters" is
je viole pas, mais j'espère toujours y arriver sans aller si loin, lol
'I don't rape, but I always hope to get there without going too long, lol'
Those French!

LH


>On 1/24/08, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>>  ---------------------- Information from the
>>mail header -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>  Subject:      Re: twoth
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  At 11:21 AM -0500 1/24/08, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  >So, in Esperanto, one asks "how many-th?"? Why? How is the answer
>>  >constructed? I don't get it. Am I being stupid, here? Or do i merely
>>  >lack sufficient background - any - in Esperanto?
>>
>>  It would presumably be the same as "combien(t)ieme" in the French
>>  examples below:  that's the 9th subject, he was the 42nd president,
>>  etc. etc.  Presumably also you can get the same kind of embedded
>>  ordinal question in Esp-o as in the French example ("for the
>>  I-don't-know-how-manyth time").
>>
>>  LH
>>
>>  >
>>  >And, WRT "ki," you mean "Romance," not "I-E," right?
>>  >
>>  >-Wilson
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On 1/24/08, Mark Mandel <thnidu at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >>-----------------------
>>  >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  >>  Poster:       Mark Mandel <thnidu at GMAIL.COM>
>>  >>  Subject:      Re: twoth
>>  >>
>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>
>>  >>  The Esp-o word needs no specific
>>analogical etymology. There's a whole grid
>>  >>  of function words, generalizing from patterns like English
>>  >>  "here/there/where", "__/then/when", "__/that/what":
>>  >>
>>  >>     - begin with 'ki' for relative or interrogative (definite I-E bias
>>  >>     there), 'ti' for demonstrative, 'i' for
>>indefinite, 'neni' for negative,
>>  >>     'c^i' for universal (c-circumflex, [tS], English "ch")
>>  >>     - add 'u' for individual, 'e' for place, 'a' for quality, 'om' for
>>  >>     quantity, ... nine in all
>>  >>
>>  >>  So kiom 'how many/much', nenie 'nowhere',
>>c^iu 'everyone, every one' (+/-
>>  >>  animate), tia 'that kind (of), such' and so on. And since you can
>>  >>  productively add the appropriate POS ending to any stem, kiom + the
>>  >>  adjective ending -a -> kioma 'how many-th'.
>>  >>
>>  >>  m a m
>>  >>
>>  >>  On Jan 24, 2008 9:47 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  > At 9:28 AM -0500 1/24/08, Mark Mandel wrote:
>>  >>  > >How common is it in natural languages
>>to have an ordinal interrogative
>>  >>  > word?
>>  >>  > >Esperanto has "kioma", derived by
>>adjectivizing "kiom"  'how much/many"?
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > >m a m
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Presumably this arose by analogy with French and
>  > >>  > other Romance languages (the main source for
>>  >>  > Esperanto).  I note 106 google hits for
>>  >>  > _combieni=E8me_ with this meaning and derivation,
>>  >>  > as in
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Ca fait le combienieme sujet sur le genre?
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Mettons, que pour la j'sais pas combieni=E8me fois,
>>  >>  > j'ai utilis=E9 le bouton "=E9diter ce message" au
>>  >>  > lieu de "r=E9pondre =E0 ce message"
>>  >>  >
>  > >>  > c'est ton combienieme match?
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > And the "less logical" but "more correct" form,
>>  >>  > _combienti=E8me_ (with epenthetic -t-) gets 2250
>>  >>  > hits (e.g. "Bill Clinton est le combienti=E8me
>>  >>  > pr=E9sident des =C9tats-Unis?" and an appearance in
>>  >>  > this blog on the topic:
>>  >>  > http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-418730.html
>>  >>  > (Respondents to this blog contribute
>>  >>  > interrogative ordinals in Swedish, German,
>>  >>  > Finnish, Turkish, Tagalog, etc.)
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > LH
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > >On Jan 17, 2008 8:48 PM, Bill Le May <blemay0 at mchsi.com> wrote:
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > >>  > -----Original Message-----
>>  >>  > >>  > From: American Dialect Society
>>[mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>>  >>  > Behalf
>>  >>  > >>  > Of Joel S. Berson
>>  >>  > >>  > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:42 AM
>>  >>  > >>  > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  >>  > >>  > Subject: Re: twoth
>>  >>  > >>
>>  >>  > >>  > Thank heaven this is not likely to
>>lead to oneth and thirdth.  (If =
>>  >>  I
>>  >>  > >>  > come across speakers of these, I won't stand too close.)
>>  >>  > >>
>>  >>  > >>  In childhood I remember saying "what-th". Wondering the day of the
>>  >>  > month,
>>  >>  > >>  I
>>  >>  > >>  would ask a parent "what day is it"
>>and inevitably get an answer like
>>  >>  > >>  "Wednesday". Frustrated, I'd reply,
>>"No, I mean today is that what-th
>>  >>  > of
>>  >>  > >>  January?"
>>  >>  > >>
>>  >>  > >>  No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>  >>  > >>  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>  >>  > >>  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6/1229 - Release Date:
>>  >>  > 1/17/2008
>>  >>  > >>  11:12 AM
>>  >>  > >>
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>>  >
>>  >--
>>  >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>  >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>  >-----
>>  >                                               -Sam'l Clemens
>>  >
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>
>
>--
>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
>                                               -Sam'l Clemens
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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