Who's diddling and how?

ronbutters at AOL.COM ronbutters at AOL.COM
Fri Jul 18 14:32:26 UTC 2008 

If it was truly "empty of semantic content" you could not have figured out what it meant. And "Tom and Mary fucked" would have been as ungrammatical as "Tom and the juicy steak ate" (for "Tom a(e the juicy steak").

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:00:18
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [ADS-L] Who's diddling and how?


To add still more useless information to the pot:

A female classmate at UC Davis averred, ca.1969, that she was not
offended by any spoken use of the word, "fuck," except in cases such
as:

"He _fucked_ her."

At that time, both for her and for me, the literal interpretation of:

"She _fucked_ him"

would have been empty of semantic content. Indeed, there was once a
time when the possibility of speaking the latter example simply
wouldn't have occurred to the overwhelming majority of native speakers
of English.

(Well, of course, I've never had occasion to query the totality of
native speakers of English on this point, but it's not unusual for me
to make such a claim, anyway, despite being fully cognizant of the
fact that what I've claimed is unrealistic, if not to say impossible.
The fact that it once would never have occurred to *me* is sufficient
for my purposes.)

-Wilson


On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Marc Velasco <marcjvelasco at gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Marc Velasco <marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Who's diddling and how?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>A. "Omigod! They're Xing!"
>>>B. "Omigod! He's Xing her!"
>>>C. "Omigod! She's Xing him!"
>
>
>>        While A and B seem in the abstract to be far more likely, I would
>> think that C would become the exclamation of choice if the woman were
>> well-known to the speaker and the man were not.
>>
>
> Would there be a difference in preference for B/C based on the viewer's
> gender?  One might suppose that the viewer would identify with the actor of
> the same-gender.  In such a case the viewer would construct a descriptive
> sentence around the person (subject) with whom he/she most identifies.
>
>  So female viewers would describe with C more often than B, while males
> would choose B preferentially over B.
>
> Has this been studied before with different (not as explicit) verbs?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> Subject:      Re: Who's diddling and how?
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> It certainly seems as though an important factor is what additional
>> information there is in the text (including assumptions about gender
>> from names), in the context of the utterance, and in the hearer's
>> experience (cultural. sexual, etc.).  An increasingly interesting lab
>> experiment must be on the way.
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> At 7/16/2008 10:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>> >At 1:51 AM +0000 7/17/08, ronbutters at aol.com wrote:
>> >>One way of describing this is that transitive FUCK is marked for
>> >>-MASC & +FEM subject. So without further info, "Chris loved fucking
>> >>Lynn" will be assumed to indicate a male subject, at least for older
>> >>speakers. However, "Marcia loves fucking Fred" sounds perfectly
>> >>unambiguous to me.
>> >>Of course, "further information" may also include folks knowledge
>> >>of--and imagination of events in--the real world.
>> >>
>> >>Still, if both fuckers are of the same sex, then the subject seems
>> >>to me to be the inserter and the object the insertee: "Tom loves
>> >>fucking Fred" puts Tom on the inside unless there is other info to
>> >>the contrary. In other words, the insertion aspect of fucking seems
>> >>more fundamental than who is on top. But maybe that has more to do
>> >>with my world view than my knowledge of English.
>> >
>> >And as noted, it's not just if they're of the same sex, but if
>> >equipment differences can be neutralized in one way or another.  So
>> >"Chris loves fucking Dana with a {dildo/strap-on}" turns Chris into
>> >the inserter and Dana the insertee regardless of their sex or
>> >position.
>> >
>> >LH
>> >
>> >>------Original Message------
>> >>From: Laurence Horn
>> >>Sender: ADS-L
>> >>To: ADS-L
>> >>ReplyTo: ADS-L
>> >>Sent: Jul 16, 2008 1:51 PM
>> >>Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Who's diddling and how?
>> >>
>> >>At 1:35 PM -0400 7/16/08, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>> >>>At 7/16/2008 01:24 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>To return to the original query.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Try this X-rated thought experiment on your wise-ass students (18
>> >>>>and over only, please!).
>> >>>
>> >>>An insufficient poll, due to one limitation in its wording.
>> >>>
>> >>>Imagine you're walking along an isolated forest path. You turn a
>> >>>corner and discover, to your surprise, a naked couple "doing it" in
>> >>>some semblance of a female on top position.
>> >>
>> >>And especially if she is (with the assistance of technology) doing
>> >>the penetrating...  (In fact, that situation might render the first
>> >>part of the exclamation even more likely.)
>> >>
>> >>Granted, Jon and others will correctly observe that these are
>> >>atypical contexts, at least until the culture evolves...
>> >>
>> >>LH
>> >>
>> >>>Now imagine that "X" in
>> >>>the following sentences stands for the "f-word."  Which of the
>> >>>following exclamations is most likely to be produced by your brain?
>> >>>(No other exclamation allowed for the present purpose.):
>> >>>
>> >>>A. "Omigod! They're Xing!"
>> >>>B. "Omigod! He's Xing her!"
>> >>>C. "Omigod! She's Xing him!"
>> >>>
>> >>>I wonder if C would move up past B, or perhaps -- depending on how
>> >>>religiously fundamentalist the thinker is -- even past A.
>> >>>
>> >>>Joel
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Imagine you're walking along an isolated forest path. You turn a
>> >>>>corner and discover, to your surprise, a naked couple "doing it" in
>> >>>>the some semblance of either the missionary or canine-related
>> >>>>position.  Now imagine that "X" in the following sentences stands
>> >>>>for the "f-word."  Which of the following exclamations is most
>> >>>>likely to be produced by your brain? (No other exclamation allowed
>> >>>>for the present purpose.):
>> >>>>
>> >>>>A. "Omigod! They're Xing!"
>> >>>>B. "Omigod! He's Xing her!"
>> >>>>C. "Omigod! She's Xing him!"
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I strongly suspect that this is the order in which the utterances
>> >>>>will in most cases occur to them. I further predict that, when time
>> >>>>machines become inexpensive and practicable, you will find that most
>> >>>>speakers you test going back to the 16th C. (and earlier if you
>> >>>>replace the "f-word" with a period synonym like "swive") will yield
>> >>>>comparable results.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Choice C seems to me unlikely in this situation, but hardly
>> >>>>"ungrammatical" or even grammatically (as opposed to
>> >>>>psychologically) peculiar.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>My belief based on HDAS exx., etc.: Such verbs most typically take
>> >>>>masculine subjects (for what I believe are obvious physiological
>> >>>>reasons), but in appropriate contexts feminine subjects are also
>> idomatic.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>JL
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>>
>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>  >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>
>> >>------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>> >>
>> >>------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>> >------------------------------------------------------------
>> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



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come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
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 -Sam'l Clemens

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