coffin pronunciation

Mon Mar 17 00:18:25 UTC 2008

Remind us what tradstreeng is?

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Tom Zurinskas wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: coffin pronunciation
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This clippit is a discussion by me of the sound of "o" in phoneme ~or (the sound of the vowel "o" as influenced by following phoneme ~r in tradstreeng "or").
>   The sound is between ~oe and ~au so truespel labels it ~or.
>
> Press play button twice to hear.
>
> http://www.qlipmedia.com/wqb/index.php?discid=bed19b83
>
> Also, note that truespel is English based.  Would the word "more" look better to English readers as ~maur rather than ~mor?  And if the "awe-droppers" see the tradstreeng "au" would they tend to substitute "ah"?  Possibly.
>
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.
>
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Paul Johnston
> > Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Tom,
> > if it's a phoneme, you should have a minimal pair, or some kind of
> > contrast with other nearby vowels in the SAME PHONETIC ENVIRONMENT.
> > If this is a rhotic accent you're describing (and your other postings
> > tell me that), and your sound in this set of words occurs only
> > before /r/, then it's an allophone, because, according to you, your
> > "awe" (open o) and "oh" (closed o) don't occur before /r/. And a lot
> > of dialects--that of my Michigan students, for one--have phonetic
> > values similar to what you describe (more true for their vowel in
> > there, air, which does seem to be between [E] and [e], than their
> > ~or, which sounds like a plain old open o to me; it still isn't their
> > vowel in awe, law, caught, which is turned a or something similar).
> > The question is: what are these sounds allophones of and that is
> > tricky. My students PERCEIVE these vowels as being [o e], even if
> > they're as much as one step lower. But I perceive my ~or--and I'm
> > rhotic too--as being an allophone of my vowel in caught, not in coat,
> > even though it may be no higher than my students' sound. and yet, my
> > ~air, I perceive as part of the /e/ phoneme too (though I have Mary
> > and merry as identical). This is a classic case of phonemic
> > neutralization in either dialect, and some old-fashioned phonological
> > theories would postulate something called an archiphoneme here
> > (saying, in effect, it's not an /O/ and it's not an /o/, it's both at
> > the same time). In a pinch, I'd probably assign on the basis of
> > native speaker perception, if there was no patterning in the system
> > suggesting otherwise. But it's not a phoneme in its own right in
> > rhotic dialects, anyhow.
> >
> > Paul Johnston
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2008, at 4:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >>
> >> My take is that the "o" in "forest" and "orange" is a separate
> >> phoneme ~or (as influenced by "r") from "awe" , not an allophone.
> >> The sound is between "awe" and "oh". In fact for "r-droppers" the
> >> word "more" can be anywhere from "moe" to "maw", depending on
> >> accent. But under the influence of "r" the "o" gets a different
> >> value, as in floor, more, boar, order. The same with ~er and ~air.
> >>
> >> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> >> at authorhouse.com.
> >>
> >>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Laurence Horn
> >>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ----------
> >>>
> >>> At 7:14 PM +0000 3/15/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >>>> Actually it's the reverse.
> >>>> See Bert Vaux's American Dialect study at
> >>>> http://www4.uwm.edu//FLL/linguistics/dialect/maps.html
> >>>> It has maps of dialect areas. Number 28 is the caught/cot question.
> >>>> It shows western prevalence for pronouncing cot/caught the same.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Actually, that's not quite right. Two different issues are involved
> >>> here, which you're treating as the same issue. It's long been
> >>> recognized that the cot/caught merger is more likely to appear in
> >>> western U.S. English than in the eastern states. But if you've been
> >>> reading this thread, you'll have seen that a number of the
> >>> northeastern respondents are claiming that (i) they do make the
> >>> distinction in environments like "caught" vs. "cot" (open-o vs. /a/
> >>> respectively) but (ii) they pronounce "coffin" with the open-o. I'm
> >>> in that group, along with several others who wrote in; in fact, I
> >>> probably exhibit considerable variation in my pronunciation of
> >>> "coffin", as well as in rhotic environments ("forest", "orange"), as
> >>> also discussed here in the past. This doesn't mean I merge "caught"
> >>> and "cot" (or "wrought" and "rot"), though.
> >>>
> >>> LH
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The data show that 61% of Americans pronounce cot/caught
> >>>> differently. How the merger is getting so much play in the media is
> >>>> baffling to me. Must be a westernbroadcast export. It is not a
> >>>> good thing. It needlessly creates homonyms which interfere with
> >>>> clearest communications. I hope no one is teaching that dropping
> >>>> "awe" for "ah" is a good thing.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> >>>> at authorhouse.com.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>> Poster: Rowan McMullin
> >>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the midwest, most of the people I've heard (who make a
> >>>>> distinction, that
> >>>>> is, between /a/ and open-o) still pronounce "coffin" with an
> >>>>> open-o. To me,
> >>>>> pronouncing it with an /a/ sounds like an east-coast thing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Rowan
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Tom Zurinskas
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> -------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Is that your usual, Scot? Beating people. How old are you?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I would think that the pronunciation of the vowel in words with
> >>>>>> "off" in
> >>>>>> it as "ah" is a recent phonomenon. In fact if "on" and "off"
> >>>>>> have the same
> >>>>>> "ah" sound, it could be confusing if the second phoneme is said
> >>>>>> softly or
> >>>>>> drops out. "Turn it ah..." could be interpreted either way.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
> >>>>>> Poems" at
> >>>>>> authorhouse.com.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>>>> Poster: Scot LaFaive
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> -------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Coffee" has always been ~kaufee. But not anymore. The "awe-
> >>>>>>>> droppers"
> >>>>>>>> refuse to say the sound ~au, and are dropping it out of the
> >>>>>>>> American
> >>>>>>> English>foenubet. Not good.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A friend of mine says [kah-fi] for "coffee." Shall I beat him
> >>>>>> unmercifully
> >>>>>>> until he submits to the proper pronunciation? The bastard does
> >>>>>>> *refuse*
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> say [kaw-fi].
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Scot
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> -------------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's an "open o" or "backward c" or whatever other visual
> >>>>>>>> description
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>> want to give the IPA symbol for the vowel sound "awe" (which in
> >>>>>> truespel is
> >>>>>>>> ~au). So it's ~kaufin. Always has been. The word "off" has
> >>>>>>>> always been
> >>>>>>>> ~auf. "Coffee" has always been ~kaufee. But not anymore. The
> >>>>>>>> "awe-droppers" refuse to say the sound ~au, and are dropping
> >>>>>>>> it out of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> American English foenubet. Not good.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Data show that American folks still prefer ~au at least for
> >>>>>>>> "caught"
> >>>>>>>> instead of pronouncing it "cot". But many newscaster in FL are
> >>>>>> replacing
> >>>>>>>> "awe" with "ah". In fact some say "cloddy" instead of "cloudy".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>>>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
> >>>>>>>> Poems" at
> >>>>>>>> authorhouse.com.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>>>>>> Poster: Matthew Gordon
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: coffin pronunciation
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> -------------
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I was listening to a podcast featuring 2 thirty-something
> >>>>>>>>> New Yorkers.
> >>>>>>>> One
> >>>>>>>>> of them pronounced 'coffin' with an open-o, and the other
> >>>>>>>>> ridiculed
> >>>>>> him,
> >>>>>>>>> saying something about how it's not 'coughin'.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> My question for those of you who maintain the distinction
> >>>>>>>>> between /a/
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> open-o: Do you all have /a/ for 'coffin'? I'm wondering
> >>>>>>>>> whether this
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> another example of a word that varies in its phonemic
> >>>>>>>>> assignment.
> >>>>>>>>>
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