coffin pronunciation

Mon Mar 17 00:57:43 UTC 2008

>Remind us what tradstreeng is?
Please don't.

>Is that your usual, Scot?  Beating people.  How old are you?

Apparently my stab at humor fell to the wayside.

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Benjamin Lukoff <blukoff at alvord.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Lukoff <blukoff at ALVORD.COM>
> Subject:      Re: coffin pronunciation
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Remind us what tradstreeng is?
>
> On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: coffin pronunciation
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > This clippit is a discussion by me of the sound of "o" in phoneme ~or
> (the sound of the vowel "o" as influenced by following phoneme ~r in
> tradstreeng "or").
> >   The sound is between ~oe and ~au so truespel labels it ~or.
> >
> > Press play button twice to hear.
> >
> > http://www.qlipmedia.com/wqb/index.php?discid=bed19b83
> >
> > Also, note that truespel is English based.  Would the word "more" look
> better to English readers as ~maur rather than ~mor?  And if the
> "awe-droppers" see the tradstreeng "au" would they tend to substitute "ah"?
>  Possibly.
> >
> >
> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at
> authorhouse.com.
> >
> > >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: Paul Johnston
> > > Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > > if it's a phoneme, you should have a minimal pair, or some kind of
> > > contrast with other nearby vowels in the SAME PHONETIC ENVIRONMENT.
> > > If this is a rhotic accent you're describing (and your other postings
> > > tell me that), and your sound in this set of words occurs only
> > > before /r/, then it's an allophone, because, according to you, your
> > > "awe" (open o) and "oh" (closed o) don't occur before /r/. And a lot
> > > of dialects--that of my Michigan students, for one--have phonetic
> > > values similar to what you describe (more true for their vowel in
> > > there, air, which does seem to be between [E] and [e], than their
> > > ~or, which sounds like a plain old open o to me; it still isn't their
> > > vowel in awe, law, caught, which is turned a or something similar).
> > > The question is: what are these sounds allophones of and that is
> > > tricky. My students PERCEIVE these vowels as being [o e], even if
> > > they're as much as one step lower. But I perceive my ~or--and I'm
> > > rhotic too--as being an allophone of my vowel in caught, not in coat,
> > > even though it may be no higher than my students' sound. and yet, my
> > > ~air, I perceive as part of the /e/ phoneme too (though I have Mary
> > > and merry as identical). This is a classic case of phonemic
> > > neutralization in either dialect, and some old-fashioned phonological
> > > theories would postulate something called an archiphoneme here
> > > (saying, in effect, it's not an /O/ and it's not an /o/, it's both at
> > > the same time). In a pinch, I'd probably assign on the basis of
> > > native speaker perception, if there was no patterning in the system
> > > suggesting otherwise. But it's not a phoneme in its own right in
> > > rhotic dialects, anyhow.
> > >
> > > Paul Johnston
> > >
> > > On Mar 15, 2008, at 4:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> > >
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> > >> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> ---------
> > >>
> > >> My take is that the "o" in "forest" and "orange" is a separate
> > >> phoneme ~or (as influenced by "r") from "awe" , not an allophone.
> > >> The sound is between "awe" and "oh". In fact for "r-droppers" the
> > >> word "more" can be anywhere from "moe" to "maw", depending on
> > >> accent. But under the influence of "r" the "o" gets a different
> > >> value, as in floor, more, boar, order. The same with ~er and ~air.
> > >>
> > >> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> > >> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> > >> at authorhouse.com.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>> Poster: Laurence Horn
> > >>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> ----------
> > >>>
> > >>> At 7:14 PM +0000 3/15/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> > >>>> Actually it's the reverse.
> > >>>> See Bert Vaux's American Dialect study at
> > >>>> http://www4.uwm.edu//FLL/linguistics/dialect/maps.html
> > >>>> It has maps of dialect areas. Number 28 is the caught/cot question.
> > >>>> It shows western prevalence for pronouncing cot/caught the same.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Actually, that's not quite right. Two different issues are involved
> > >>> here, which you're treating as the same issue. It's long been
> > >>> recognized that the cot/caught merger is more likely to appear in
> > >>> western U.S. English than in the eastern states. But if you've been
> > >>> reading this thread, you'll have seen that a number of the
> > >>> northeastern respondents are claiming that (i) they do make the
> > >>> distinction in environments like "caught" vs. "cot" (open-o vs. /a/
> > >>> respectively) but (ii) they pronounce "coffin" with the open-o. I'm
> > >>> in that group, along with several others who wrote in; in fact, I
> > >>> probably exhibit considerable variation in my pronunciation of
> > >>> "coffin", as well as in rhotic environments ("forest", "orange"), as
> > >>> also discussed here in the past. This doesn't mean I merge "caught"
> > >>> and "cot" (or "wrought" and "rot"), though.
> > >>>
> > >>> LH
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The data show that 61% of Americans pronounce cot/caught
> > >>>> differently. How the merger is getting so much play in the media is
> > >>>> baffling to me. Must be a westernbroadcast export. It is not a
> > >>>> good thing. It needlessly creates homonyms which interfere with
> > >>>> clearest communications. I hope no one is teaching that dropping
> > >>>> "awe" for "ah" is a good thing.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> > >>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> > >>>> at authorhouse.com.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>>>> -----------------------
> > >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>>>> Poster: Rowan McMullin
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>> ------------
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In the midwest, most of the people I've heard (who make a
> > >>>>> distinction, that
> > >>>>> is, between /a/ and open-o) still pronounce "coffin" with an
> > >>>>> open-o. To me,
> > >>>>> pronouncing it with an /a/ sounds like an east-coast thing.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -Rowan
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Tom Zurinskas
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>>>>> -----------------------
> > >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>> -------------
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Is that your usual, Scot? Beating people. How old are you?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I would think that the pronunciation of the vowel in words with
> > >>>>>> "off" in
> > >>>>>> it as "ah" is a recent phonomenon. In fact if "on" and "off"
> > >>>>>> have the same
> > >>>>>> "ah" sound, it could be confusing if the second phoneme is said
> > >>>>>> softly or
> > >>>>>> drops out. "Turn it ah..." could be interpreted either way.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> > >>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
> > >>>>>> Poems" at
> > >>>>>> authorhouse.com.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>>>>> -----------------------
> > >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>>>>>> Poster: Scot LaFaive
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>> -------------
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> "Coffee" has always been ~kaufee. But not anymore. The "awe-
> > >>>>>>>> droppers"
> > >>>>>>>> refuse to say the sound ~au, and are dropping it out of the
> > >>>>>>>> American
> > >>>>>>> English>foenubet. Not good.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> A friend of mine says [kah-fi] for "coffee." Shall I beat him
> > >>>>>> unmercifully
> > >>>>>>> until he submits to the proper pronunciation? The bastard does
> > >>>>>>> *refuse*
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>> say [kaw-fi].
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Scot
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>>>>>>> -----------------------
> > >>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>> -------------
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> It's an "open o" or "backward c" or whatever other visual
> > >>>>>>>> description
> > >>>>>> you
> > >>>>>>>> want to give the IPA symbol for the vowel sound "awe" (which in
> > >>>>>> truespel is
> > >>>>>>>> ~au). So it's ~kaufin. Always has been. The word "off" has
> > >>>>>>>> always been
> > >>>>>>>> ~auf. "Coffee" has always been ~kaufee. But not anymore. The
> > >>>>>>>> "awe-droppers" refuse to say the sound ~au, and are dropping
> > >>>>>>>> it out of
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>> American English foenubet. Not good.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Data show that American folks still prefer ~au at least for
> > >>>>>>>> "caught"
> > >>>>>>>> instead of pronouncing it "cot". But many newscaster in FL are
> > >>>>>> replacing
> > >>>>>>>> "awe" with "ah". In fact some say "cloddy" instead of "cloudy".
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> > >>>>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
> > >>>>>>>> Poems" at
> > >>>>>>>> authorhouse.com.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>>>>>>> -----------------------
> > >>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>>>>>>>> Poster: Matthew Gordon
> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: coffin pronunciation
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>> -------------
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I was listening to a podcast featuring 2 thirty-something
> > >>>>>>>>> New Yorkers.
> > >>>>>>>> One
> > >>>>>>>>> of them pronounced 'coffin' with an open-o, and the other
> > >>>>>>>>> ridiculed
> > >>>>>> him,
> > >>>>>>>>> saying something about how it's not 'coughin'.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> My question for those of you who maintain the distinction
> > >>>>>>>>> between /a/
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>> open-o: Do you all have /a/ for 'coffin'? I'm wondering
> > >>>>>>>>> whether this
> > >>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>> another example of a word that varies in its phonemic
> > >>>>>>>>> assignment.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> ________________________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> _
> > >>>>>>>> Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
> > >>>>>>>> http://biggestloser.msn.com/
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your
> > >>>>>> Hotmail(R)-get
> > >>>>>> your "fix".
> > >>>>>> http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _________________________________________________________________
> > >>>> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
> > >>>> http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?
> > >>>> ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>
> > >> _________________________________________________________________
> > >> Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge
> > >> with star power.
> > >> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
> > >> icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
> > http://biggestloser.msn.com/
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org