coffin pronunciation

Tom Zurinskas truespel at HOTMAIL.COM
Mon Mar 17 00:58:06 UTC 2008 

A tradstreeng is a string of letters in tradspel (traditional spelling).  It could be any number of letters in a row and more than one phoneme or syllable.

For instance in the database, I can filter on the tradstreeng "off" and get all the tradwerdz (words in traditional spelling) that have "off" in them.  Looking at the most popular 5,000 words of English I get the list below most popular at top.  (a double f starts a stressed syllable.)

off     ~auf
office  ~aufis
offer   ~aufer
coffee  ~kaufee
offered ~auferd
official        ~uffishool
officer ~aufiser
officers        ~aufiserz
officials       ~uffishoolz
offering        ~aufereeng
offices ~aufisiz
offers  ~auferz
officially      ~uffishoolee
offence ~uffents
offensive       ~uffentsiv

Some words in truespel look a lot like tradspel.  I put a tilde to indicate truespel.  The database is a spreadsheet available for researchers who want to use it.

The words above are ranked because they are associated with frequency counts from the Collins Cobuild database.  They count how often words appear in general media (newspapers).  A count is given for each word in the top 5k.  Thus it's possible to quantify dialect changes (such as "r" dropping) using this database.  Just substitute a place keeper (like the number 7) for each dropped r, and then total up the words with 7's.  You can find the % of words that change.  Because the phoneme count is know, you can get the % of phoneme change as well.


Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.





>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Lukoff
> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Remind us what tradstreeng is?
>
> On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> This clippit is a discussion by me of the sound of "o" in phoneme ~or (the sound of the vowel "o" as influenced by following phoneme ~r in tradstreeng "or").
>> The sound is between ~oe and ~au so truespel labels it ~or.
>>
>> Press play button twice to hear.
>>
>> http://www.qlipmedia.com/wqb/index.php?discid=bed19b83
>>
>> Also, note that truespel is English based. Would the word "more" look better to English readers as ~maur rather than ~mor? And if the "awe-droppers" see the tradstreeng "au" would they tend to substitute "ah"? Possibly.
>>
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.
>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Paul Johnston
>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Tom,
>>> if it's a phoneme, you should have a minimal pair, or some kind of
>>> contrast with other nearby vowels in the SAME PHONETIC ENVIRONMENT.
>>> If this is a rhotic accent you're describing (and your other postings
>>> tell me that), and your sound in this set of words occurs only
>>> before /r/, then it's an allophone, because, according to you, your
>>> "awe" (open o) and "oh" (closed o) don't occur before /r/. And a lot
>>> of dialects--that of my Michigan students, for one--have phonetic
>>> values similar to what you describe (more true for their vowel in
>>> there, air, which does seem to be between [E] and [e], than their
>>> ~or, which sounds like a plain old open o to me; it still isn't their
>>> vowel in awe, law, caught, which is turned a or something similar).
>>> The question is: what are these sounds allophones of and that is
>>> tricky. My students PERCEIVE these vowels as being [o e], even if
>>> they're as much as one step lower. But I perceive my ~or--and I'm
>>> rhotic too--as being an allophone of my vowel in caught, not in coat,
>>> even though it may be no higher than my students' sound. and yet, my
>>> ~air, I perceive as part of the /e/ phoneme too (though I have Mary
>>> and merry as identical). This is a classic case of phonemic
>>> neutralization in either dialect, and some old-fashioned phonological
>>> theories would postulate something called an archiphoneme here
>>> (saying, in effect, it's not an /O/ and it's not an /o/, it's both at
>>> the same time). In a pinch, I'd probably assign on the basis of
>>> native speaker perception, if there was no patterning in the system
>>> suggesting otherwise. But it's not a phoneme in its own right in
>>> rhotic dialects, anyhow.
>>>
>>> Paul Johnston
>>>
>>> On Mar 15, 2008, at 4:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ---------
>>>>
>>>> My take is that the "o" in "forest" and "orange" is a separate
>>>> phoneme ~or (as influenced by "r") from "awe" , not an allophone.
>>>> The sound is between "awe" and "oh". In fact for "r-droppers" the
>>>> word "more" can be anywhere from "moe" to "maw", depending on
>>>> accent. But under the influence of "r" the "o" gets a different
>>>> value, as in floor, more, boar, order. The same with ~er and ~air.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
>>>> at authorhouse.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ----------
>>>>>
>>>>> At 7:14 PM +0000 3/15/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>> Actually it's the reverse.
>>>>>> See Bert Vaux's American Dialect study at
>>>>>> http://www4.uwm.edu//FLL/linguistics/dialect/maps.html
>>>>>> It has maps of dialect areas. Number 28 is the caught/cot question.
>>>>>> It shows western prevalence for pronouncing cot/caught the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, that's not quite right. Two different issues are involved
>>>>> here, which you're treating as the same issue. It's long been
>>>>> recognized that the cot/caught merger is more likely to appear in
>>>>> western U.S. English than in the eastern states. But if you've been
>>>>> reading this thread, you'll have seen that a number of the
>>>>> northeastern respondents are claiming that (i) they do make the
>>>>> distinction in environments like "caught" vs. "cot" (open-o vs. /a/
>>>>> respectively) but (ii) they pronounce "coffin" with the open-o. I'm
>>>>> in that group, along with several others who wrote in; in fact, I
>>>>> probably exhibit considerable variation in my pronunciation of
>>>>> "coffin", as well as in rhotic environments ("forest", "orange"), as
>>>>> also discussed here in the past. This doesn't mean I merge "caught"
>>>>> and "cot" (or "wrought" and "rot"), though.
>>>>>
>>>>> LH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The data show that 61% of Americans pronounce cot/caught
>>>>>> differently. How the merger is getting so much play in the media is
>>>>>> baffling to me. Must be a westernbroadcast export. It is not a
>>>>>> good thing. It needlessly creates homonyms which interfere with
>>>>>> clearest communications. I hope no one is teaching that dropping
>>>>>> "awe" for "ah" is a good thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
>>>>>> at authorhouse.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Rowan McMullin
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the midwest, most of the people I've heard (who make a
>>>>>>> distinction, that
>>>>>>> is, between /a/ and open-o) still pronounce "coffin" with an
>>>>>>> open-o. To me,
>>>>>>> pronouncing it with an /a/ sounds like an east-coast thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rowan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that your usual, Scot? Beating people. How old are you?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would think that the pronunciation of the vowel in words with
>>>>>>>> "off" in
>>>>>>>> it as "ah" is a recent phonomenon. In fact if "on" and "off"
>>>>>>>> have the same
>>>>>>>> "ah" sound, it could be confusing if the second phoneme is said
>>>>>>>> softly or
>>>>>>>> drops out. "Turn it ah..." could be interpreted either way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
>>>>>>>> Poems" at
>>>>>>>> authorhouse.com.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>> Poster: Scot LaFaive
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Coffee" has always been ~kaufee. But not anymore. The "awe-
>>>>>>>>>> droppers"
>>>>>>>>>> refuse to say the sound ~au, and are dropping it out of the
>>>>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>>>> English>foenubet. Not good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A friend of mine says [kah-fi] for "coffee." Shall I beat him
>>>>>>>> unmercifully
>>>>>>>>> until he submits to the proper pronunciation? The bastard does
>>>>>>>>> *refuse*
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> say [kaw-fi].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scot
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: coffin pronunciation
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's an "open o" or "backward c" or whatever other visual
>>>>>>>>>> description
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> want to give the IPA symbol for the vowel sound "awe" (which in
>>>>>>>> truespel is
>>>>>>>>>> ~au). So it's ~kaufin. Always has been. The word "off" has
>>>>>>>>>> always been
>>>>>>>>>> ~auf. "Coffee" has always been ~kaufee. But not anymore. The
>>>>>>>>>> "awe-droppers" refuse to say the sound ~au, and are dropping
>>>>>>>>>> it out of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> American English foenubet. Not good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Data show that American folks still prefer ~au at least for
>>>>>>>>>> "caught"
>>>>>>>>>> instead of pronouncing it "cot". But many newscaster in FL are
>>>>>>>> replacing
>>>>>>>>>> "awe" with "ah". In fact some say "cloddy" instead of "cloudy".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>>>>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
>>>>>>>>>> Poems" at
>>>>>>>>>> authorhouse.com.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>>>> Poster: Matthew Gordon
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: coffin pronunciation
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a podcast featuring 2 thirty-something
>>>>>>>>>>> New Yorkers.
>>>>>>>>>> One
>>>>>>>>>>> of them pronounced 'coffin' with an open-o, and the other
>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculed
>>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>>>>>> saying something about how it's not 'coughin'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My question for those of you who maintain the distinction
>>>>>>>>>>> between /a/
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> open-o: Do you all have /a/ for 'coffin'? I'm wondering
>>>>>>>>>>> whether this
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> another example of a word that varies in its phonemic
>>>>>>>>>>> assignment.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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>
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