Subjunctive(?): not critical that
Dennis Preston
preston at MSU.EDU
Mon Mar 24 10:24:00 UTC 2008
Ahhhh! Emeritus! What a nice ring that has.
Almost did it after the locals at MSU decided
soiolinguistics was not a life worth living, but
took a new job instead. Actually, since I will
officially retire here, I will be MSU emeritus
(but not until August).
dInIs
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>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
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>
>Not bad! When you go emeritus (if you haven't, already), dInIs, have
>you considered writing for MadTV? You have the magic touch, as The
>Platters almost sang.
>
>-Wilson
>
>On 3/23/08, Dennis Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
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>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
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>> Poster: Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
>>
>> Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
>>
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>>
>> Spose ol' Ulysses has told that one-eyed sumbitch
>> that his name was "Joe Mamma." Then when the
>> other cyclopses come around after he done got his
>> peeper poked out, they say "Who hurtin' you,
>> bro?" Ol' one-eye say, "Joe Momma." They say
>> "Fuck you too," and go away. Better'n Homer, and
>> didn't use no dang subjunkwhatchamacallits.
>>
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>>
>>
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>> >header -----------------------
>> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
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>> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> >Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
>>
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>> >
>> >C'mon, now, dInIs! Give a brother a break! Even reading-to-understand
>> >(is this term used, anymore?) the work of dead *English-speaking*
>> >white men is next to impossible without knowledge of the subjunctive -
>> >well, maybe with a copy of the Cliff's Notes versions - is a bitch,
>> >let alone reading the work of writers ranging from Homer to Hitler,
>> >without having any prior concept of what "subjunctive," "optative,"
>> >and "past, contrary-to-fact, conditional clause" mean, before trying
>> >to read them in their original languages.
>> >
>> >Let me give an example from Homer, a pun whose point requires a
>> >knowledge of the admittedly moribund subjunctive in English.
>> >
>>
>> >Odysseus tells the Cyclops that his name is "OÚutis." (Note the
>>
>> >circumflex, presumably an indication that this is an actual name. It's
>> >not possible to know for certain, since this is a hapax.) After
>> >Odysseus has blinded him, Polyphemos calls for help, saying that
>>
>> >"OÚutis" has hurt him, the other Cyclopes answer, if "m» tis" (note
>> >the use of the subjunctive form of "no one" _m» tis_, which shows
>> >that "OÚutis," the proper name of unknowable meaning, has been
>> >understood as the indicative negative pronoun, _oô tis_, meaning "no
>>
>> >one") have hurt you ...
>> >
>> >Why do the other Cyclopes misunderstand him? Because he's screaming in
>> >pain and they assume that, whatever he's actually saying, he means to
>>
>> >say "oô tis," his use of the circumflex being merely coincidental
>>
>> >wavering of his voice as he shouts in pain and not the screaming out
>> >of an actual, personal name. Knowledge of both Greek and of the
>> >subjunctive not only is good for a laugh, but gets around the problem
>> >of how the Cyclops could really be stupid enough to accept the claim
>> >that a being that is clearly *someone* could possibly have the
>> >illogical personal name, "No One."
>> >
>>
>> >The solution is that he isn't. He accepts "OÚutis" as a personal name,
>> >not "Oô tis."
>>
>> >
>> >-Wilson
>> >
>> >On 3/23/08, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
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> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >>
>> >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>> >>
>> >> Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
>> >>
>>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Well, I must be a poor reader. I thought you said that Spanish took
>> >> its subjunctive seriously and that the evidence you gave was that
>> >> your Spanish teacher spent a lot of time on it and tested you on it
>> >> extensively. I'm still having trouble not understanding that.
>> >>
>> >> dInIs
>> >>
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>> >> >Poster: "JAMES A. LANDAU Netscape. Just the Net You Need."
>> >> > <JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM>
>> >> >Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
>> >>
>>
>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> >On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 at 16:40:43 Zulu minus 4 Dennis Preston
>> >> ><preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >This entire message assumes that the subjunctive
>> >> >is intact in Spanish and apparently used by all,
>> >> >unfortunately on the basis of a single Spanish
>> >> >teacher's instructions! (My favorite bit of
>> > > >sociolinguistics for quite some time is is "How
>> >> >seriously? My Spanish teacher...."). That would
>> >> >equate studying the drift of living languages by
>> >> >asking what their teachers taught. In fact, the
>> >> >Spanish subjunctive it is rapidly disappearing in
>> >> >nearly all varieties of spoken Spanish. Good
>> >> >riddance!
>> >> >
>> >> >This was in response to my comment:
>> >> >
>> >> >Spanish is a language that takes the subjunctive seriously. How
>> >> >seriously? My high school Spanish teacher had us spend several weeks
>> >> >studying nothing but the subjunctive,
>>ending with the longest take-home
>> >> >exam I have ever had. It was at the end of those weeks that I first
>> >> >felt that I spoke Spanish, because I could now say so much more than
>> >> >before the exercise started.
>> >> >
>> >> >My response:
>> >> >
>> >> >What I said was that I personally felt that I was beginning to
>> >> >master Spanish once I had emerged from that weeks-long torture
>> >> >session on the subjunctive. Specifically once we ended that
>> >> >sesstion we went into Spanish history, and I discovered while doing
>> >> >homework assignments and essay exams that I could express myself in
>> >> >Spanish much better and with a wider range of possibilities now that
>> >> >I knew the (textbook) rules of the subjunctive. This was MY
>> >> >conclusion, not my teacher's.
>> >> >
>> >> >From Spanish history we went into the literature of the Siglo de Oro
>> >> >and the Generacion de 98, so I can't really claim to concentrated on
>> >> >contemporary spoken Spanish. And in fact if the subjunctive is
>> >> >"rapidly disappearing" in present-day Spanish, then it must have
>> >> >still been alive and kicking back in 1962.
>> >> >
>> >> >In any event I was using century-old literary Spanish usage to make
>> >> >a point about the why? of the subjunctive mood, not about
>> >> >contemporary Spanish usage.
>> >> >
>> >> >Also I stated: the so-called *subjunctive mood* in English is not
>> >> >a true subjunctive but rather a
>>grammatical idiosyncracy which is rarely
>> >> >used to distinguish two moods of a
>>verb, and should be referred to as a
>> >> >*pseudo-subjunctive*.
>> >> >
>> >> >Since you say "good riddance" to the subjunctive, you should be
>> >> >applauding my statement.
>> >> >
>> >> >If the subjunctive is rapidly disappearing from spoken Spanish, what
>> >> >is taking its place? Not aspect, since the Spanish verb has only
>> >> >two aspects and one of them is about as rare as proper (i.e.
> > >> >prescriptivist) usage of the English subjunctive.
> > >> >
>> >> >Aside to Laurence Horn: You give the examples
>> >> >
>> >> > She insists that he not take his medicine
>> >> > She insists that he does not take his medicine.
>> >> >
>> >> >Indeed the difference between the two is in the aspect of the verb.
>> >> >A prescriptivist, however, would render the latter as:
>> >> >
>> >> > She insists that he do not take his medicine.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > James A. Landau
>> >> > test engineer
>> >> > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology
>> >> > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300
>> >> > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA
>> >> >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
>> >> >MJTRP YMTET NADJM QDUCJ BDOHP HADFF ZLRXT CFVPL
>> >> >EADIJ YDMURTSOT RPHYG
>> >> >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >_____________________________________________________________
>> >> >Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
>> >> >
>> >> >------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Dennis R. Preston
>> >> University Distinguished Professor
>> >> Department of English
>> >>
>> >> 15C Morrill Hall
>> >> Michigan State University
>> >> East Lansing, MI 48824
>> >> 517-353-4736
>> >> preston at msu.edu
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> >-----
>> > -Sam'l Clemens
>> >
>> >------------------------------------------------------------
>> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor
>> Department of English
>>
>> Morrill Hall 15-C
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>--
>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
> -Sam'l Clemens
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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