Subjunctive(?): not critical that
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Sun Mar 23 23:51:16 UTC 2008
Not bad! When you go emeritus (if you haven't, already), dInIs, have
you considered writing for MadTV? You have the magic touch, as The
Platters almost sang.
-Wilson
On 3/23/08, Dennis Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>
> Poster: Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
>
> Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Spose ol' Ulysses has told that one-eyed sumbitch
> that his name was "Joe Mamma." Then when the
> other cyclopses come around after he done got his
> peeper poked out, they say "Who hurtin' you,
> bro?" Ol' one-eye say, "Joe Momma." They say
> "Fuck you too," and go away. Better'n Homer, and
> didn't use no dang subjunkwhatchamacallits.
>
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail
> >header -----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>
> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >C'mon, now, dInIs! Give a brother a break! Even reading-to-understand
> >(is this term used, anymore?) the work of dead *English-speaking*
> >white men is next to impossible without knowledge of the subjunctive -
> >well, maybe with a copy of the Cliff's Notes versions - is a bitch,
> >let alone reading the work of writers ranging from Homer to Hitler,
> >without having any prior concept of what "subjunctive," "optative,"
> >and "past, contrary-to-fact, conditional clause" mean, before trying
> >to read them in their original languages.
> >
> >Let me give an example from Homer, a pun whose point requires a
> >knowledge of the admittedly moribund subjunctive in English.
> >
>
> >Odysseus tells the Cyclops that his name is "Oòutis." (Note the
>
> >circumflex, presumably an indication that this is an actual name. It's
> >not possible to know for certain, since this is a hapax.) After
> >Odysseus has blinded him, Polyphemos calls for help, saying that
>
> >"Oòutis" has hurt him, the other Cyclopes answer, if "mÈ tis" (note
> >the use of the subjunctive form of "no one" _mÈ tis_, which shows
> >that "Oòutis," the proper name of unknowable meaning, has been
> >understood as the indicative negative pronoun, _o™ tis_, meaning "no
>
> >one") have hurt you ...
> >
> >Why do the other Cyclopes misunderstand him? Because he's screaming in
> >pain and they assume that, whatever he's actually saying, he means to
>
> >say "o™ tis," his use of the circumflex being merely coincidental
>
> >wavering of his voice as he shouts in pain and not the screaming out
> >of an actual, personal name. Knowledge of both Greek and of the
> >subjunctive not only is good for a laugh, but gets around the problem
> >of how the Cyclops could really be stupid enough to accept the claim
> >that a being that is clearly *someone* could possibly have the
> >illogical personal name, "No One."
> >
>
> >The solution is that he isn't. He accepts "Oòutis" as a personal name,
> >not "O™ tis."
>
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >On 3/23/08, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the
> >>mail header -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>
> >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, I must be a poor reader. I thought you said that Spanish took
> >> its subjunctive seriously and that the evidence you gave was that
> >> your Spanish teacher spent a lot of time on it and tested you on it
> >> extensively. I'm still having trouble not understanding that.
> >>
> >> dInIs
> >>
> >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >-----------------------
> >> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >Poster: "JAMES A. LANDAU Netscape. Just the Net You Need."
> >> > <JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM>
> >> >Subject: Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
> >>
> >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 at 16:40:43 Zulu minus 4 Dennis Preston
> >> ><preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >This entire message assumes that the subjunctive
> >> >is intact in Spanish and apparently used by all,
> >> >unfortunately on the basis of a single Spanish
> >> >teacher's instructions! (My favorite bit of
> > > >sociolinguistics for quite some time is is "How
> >> >seriously? My Spanish teacher...."). That would
> >> >equate studying the drift of living languages by
> >> >asking what their teachers taught. In fact, the
> >> >Spanish subjunctive it is rapidly disappearing in
> >> >nearly all varieties of spoken Spanish. Good
> >> >riddance!
> >> >
> >> >This was in response to my comment:
> >> >
> >> >Spanish is a language that takes the subjunctive seriously. How
> >> >seriously? My high school Spanish teacher had us spend several weeks
> >> >studying nothing but the subjunctive, ending with the longest take-home
> >> >exam I have ever had. It was at the end of those weeks that I first
> >> >felt that I spoke Spanish, because I could now say so much more than
> >> >before the exercise started.
> >> >
> >> >My response:
> >> >
> >> >What I said was that I personally felt that I was beginning to
> >> >master Spanish once I had emerged from that weeks-long torture
> >> >session on the subjunctive. Specifically once we ended that
> >> >sesstion we went into Spanish history, and I discovered while doing
> >> >homework assignments and essay exams that I could express myself in
> >> >Spanish much better and with a wider range of possibilities now that
> >> >I knew the (textbook) rules of the subjunctive. This was MY
> >> >conclusion, not my teacher's.
> >> >
> >> >From Spanish history we went into the literature of the Siglo de Oro
> >> >and the Generacion de 98, so I can't really claim to concentrated on
> >> >contemporary spoken Spanish. And in fact if the subjunctive is
> >> >"rapidly disappearing" in present-day Spanish, then it must have
> >> >still been alive and kicking back in 1962.
> >> >
> >> >In any event I was using century-old literary Spanish usage to make
> >> >a point about the why? of the subjunctive mood, not about
> >> >contemporary Spanish usage.
> >> >
> >> >Also I stated: the so-called *subjunctive mood* in English is not
> >> >a true subjunctive but rather a grammatical idiosyncracy which is rarely
> >> >used to distinguish two moods of a verb, and should be referred to as a
> >> >*pseudo-subjunctive*.
> >> >
> >> >Since you say "good riddance" to the subjunctive, you should be
> >> >applauding my statement.
> >> >
> >> >If the subjunctive is rapidly disappearing from spoken Spanish, what
> >> >is taking its place? Not aspect, since the Spanish verb has only
> >> >two aspects and one of them is about as rare as proper (i.e.
> >> >prescriptivist) usage of the English subjunctive.
> >> >
> >> >Aside to Laurence Horn: You give the examples
> >> >
> >> > She insists that he not take his medicine
> >> > She insists that he does not take his medicine.
> >> >
> >> >Indeed the difference between the two is in the aspect of the verb.
> >> >A prescriptivist, however, would render the latter as:
> >> >
> >> > She insists that he do not take his medicine.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > James A. Landau
> >> > test engineer
> >> > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology
> >> > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300
> >> > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA
> >> >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
> >> >MJTRP YMTET NADJM QDUCJ BDOHP HADFF ZLRXT CFVPL
> >> >EADIJ YDMURTSOT RPHYG
> >> >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_____________________________________________________________
> >> >Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
> >> >
> >> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dennis R. Preston
> >> University Distinguished Professor
> >> Department of English
> >>
> >> 15C Morrill Hall
> >> Michigan State University
> >> East Lansing, MI 48824
> >> 517-353-4736
> >> preston at msu.edu
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
>
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Sam'l Clemens
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
More information about the Ads-l
mailing list