antedating (?) of "hep" 1907 (Hip and hep)

[Paul]

paul johnson wrote:
That's the shoe!  First made popular to me by "The Amboy Dukes" by
Irving Shulman. (Boy I thought they were hep)
 Good looking and made for street fighting.
To be honest, anything south of Joliet was Terra Incognito to us back
then, then i met this girl and......
Wilson Gray wrote:
> "Brogans"? What style of shoe was that? 'Cause, as it says on Bo
> Diddley's jam, _Hey, Man_, "Them ain't no shoes. Them brogans!"
> [brog&nz] or _bro-gans_, by which was meant "workshoes."
>
> There was a kind of big, heavy, but cool dress-shoe - usually wingtips
> with outside welt and double-stitched soles noticeably wider than the
> shoes' uppers - called "floats," originally a nickname for
> Florsheim's, popular in Saint Louis, Missouri. (Back in the day,
> Chicagoans would ask you where you were from. If you answered merely
> "Saint Louis," Chicagoans would then ask, "Illinois or Missouri?",
> though they knew damned well that it's *East*..., known merely as
> "East Side" to Saint Louisans, that's in Illinois. They just liked to
> mess with us hix from the stix. From the POV of black Louietowners,
> Chicago was "The City.") These were worn with the Mister B collar and
> the one-button roll.
>
> Anyway, does that sound like what you mean by "brogans"?
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Paul <paulzjoh at mtnhome.com> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Paul <paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: antedating (?) of "hep" 1907 (Hip and hep)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> paul johnson wrote
>>  paulzjoh at mtnhome.com
>>
>> hip vs hep
>> In my misspent (happily, I may add) youth when I had a grey flannel one
>> button roll, a black Mr B collar, Flagg Bros Brogans, a key chain 3/4 of
>> the way to my knees, two inch cuffs, and a charcoal porkpie, I clearly
>> remember the shift in Chicago from Hep to hip at about 1948 to 50. You
>> were a hepcat in the '40's and had morphed into a hipster by '52 at the
>> latest.
>>
>> George Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> [The  Actor's Boarding House and Other Stories, By Helen Green] was
>>>
>>>
>>>> published in 1907 but it says that the stories have all appreared in (NY?)
>>>> Morning Telegraph (in 1906?).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yes, a New York paper.  I'm the world's foremost authority on Helen Green, and some years ago I tried to find a file of the Telegraph for the years she wrote for it (1905-1910 or thereabouts), but didn't succeed.  As I recall, the NYPL had it up to 1905, and after 1910.  It could be a good source for slang, since it devoted itself to the raffish elements of NYC culture.
>>> In its later decades, it was strictly a horse-player's organ, and was bought out and killed by the still-extant Racing Form in the 1950s.  But the Form doesn't have a file of the Telegraph from before the 1930s.
>>> Not to be confused with the NY Telegram, by the way.
>>>
>>> If SG has actually read The Actors' Boarding House, I will buy him a beer, should we ever meet.  We Helen Green fans are a small group, but intensely collegial.
>>>
>>> GAT
>>>
>>> George A. Thompson
>>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
>>> Date: Friday, September 5, 2008 11:32 am
>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) of "hep" 1907
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Quoting Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 05, 2008 at 08:34:47AM -0400, Stephen Goranson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> OED has 1908 for slang "hep" {and a 1941 "Joe Hep" mention) and 1904
>>>>>> for "hip."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the Actor's Boarding House and Other Stories, By Helen Green (NY:
>>>>>> Brentano's.
>>>>>> 1907).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> p. 31 "I'm hep," said Terence, briefly, feeling in his pocket for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> the short
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> billy which had won him so many scraps over on "the Avenoo."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> HDAS cites this example from Green, along with four or more
>>>>> earlier examples of _hep_ (depending on how you regard the
>>>>> dating of this and other books).
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesse Sheidlower
>>>>> OED
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, thanks, I should have checked there. Now that I have, it still
>>>> appears that
>>>> the collocation Joe Hep in this sense may be an antedating. The book was
>>>> published in 1907 but it says that the stories have all appreared in (NY?)
>>>> Morning Telegraph (in 1906?).
>>>>
>>>> Stephen
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>> --
>> When you swim in the sea
>> And an eel bites your knee
>>   That's a moray!
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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> -----
> -Mark Twain
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When you swim in the sea
And an eel bites your knee
   That's a moray!



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