Odd rhyme claim

Wed Dec 16 15:40:32 UTC 2009

Margaret Winters and I were talking about this oddity this morning, and she pointed out that the word 'thought' seems to have undergone an idiosyncratic shift from the 'awe' vowel to short-o in British English in the nineteenth century, as indicated by the occasional 'eye dialect' spelling 'thot'.  On this side of the Atlantic, in 'ah'-'awe' merger areas that would explain half of the puzzle (and a pinky-extended secondary stress on the final syllable would explain the other half).
Just our 2c worth...

Geoff

Geoffrey S. Nathan
Faculty Liaison, C&IT
and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program
+1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
+1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics)

----- "Paul Johnston" <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU> wrote:

> From: "Paul Johnston" <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:16:44 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'd imagine it would be with the low rounded back vowel, though Mel
> Ott's name would be pronounced with the same vowel too.  The symbol
> is a turned script a, which my students always confuse with a capital
> D.  Come to think of it, at least in some New England dialects, ought
> would be pronounced with the same vowel as well.  The vowel in
> '"pahking cahs" is much, much fronter, and unrounded,  it's IPA [a:].
>
> Yours,
> Paul Johnston
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> >
> > At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
> >> For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi
> >> brothers on
> >> NPR.
> >
> > Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
> > even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel --
> which
> > I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
> > ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?)  I'll have
> to
> > listen next Saturday.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Tom Zurinskas" <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >>
> >>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> >>> header -----------------------
> >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -----------
> >>>
> >>> "Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn.
> >>> but for my
> >>> =
> >>> neighbor from Mass it would.  For her "ot" would be spoken
> >>> "ought".  The
> >>> le=
> >>> tter "o" often took the "awe" sound.  She would call me ~Taumee
> >>> (~au as in
> >>> =
> >>> "awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby).  This is over 40 years
> ago.
> >>>
> >>> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
> >>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> =20
> >>> =20
> >>>> Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
> >>>> From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> >>>> Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>> =20
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> >>>> header -----------------=
> >>> ------
> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> ------=
> >>> ------
> >>>> =20
> >>>> The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only
> >>>> region of
> >>>> t=
> >>> he
> >>>> nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_
> >>>> rhymes
> >>>> wit=
> >>> h
> >>>> _thought_."
> >>>> =20
> >>>> Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_
> >>>> nowhere
> >>>> o=
> >>> n
> >>>> Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's
> >>>> expense? Yeah=
> >>> =2C
> >>>> that must be it. Sorry.
> >>>> =20
> >>>> On the other hand....I'm curious.
> >>>> =20
> >>>> JL
> >>>> =20
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