Odd rhyme claim

Wed Dec 16 15:58:48 UTC 2009

At 12/16/2009 12:21 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>As Alice says, for _patriot_ actually to "rhyme" with _thought_, there would
>have to be a noticeable secondary stress on the final syllable plus a
>unreduced or at least barely reduced vowel.

That (I think!) is what I'm imagining I might hear here in
Boston.  And if we say pay-tree-AH-tik -- and the local assistant DA
says dee-fen-DANT -- why not PAY-tree-OTT?

>Here again is the stanza:
>
>Though loth to grieve
>The evil time's sole patriot,
>I cannot leave
>My buried thought
>For the priest's cant,
>Or statesman's rant.
>
>Joel may be right: / at / ("ott")  in both words.  But / at / in _thought_
>in Concord in 1847? Hard for me to imagine.

Dunno.  Is there an English or Irish dialect with that
pronunciation?  Did Emerson affect an English pronunciation?  There
were Irish immigrant workers camped at Walden Pond when the railroad
was being built through there.   The web tells me the Fitchburg
railroad laid tracks past Walden the year before Thoreau took up
residence, and he resided at Walden from 1845 to 1847.

Joel

>JL
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>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
> > >For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi brothers on
> > >NPR.
> >
> > Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
> > even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel -- which
> > I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
> > ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?)  I'll have to
> > listen next Saturday.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Tom Zurinskas" <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
> > >Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >
> > >
> > >>---------------------- Information from the mail
> > >>header -----------------------
> > >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >>Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >
> > >>----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> > >>
> > >>"Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn. but for
> > my
> > >>=
> > >>neighbor from Mass it would.  For her "ot" would be spoken "ought".  The
> > >>le=
> > >>tter "o" often took the "awe" sound.  She would call me ~Taumee (~au as
> > in
> > >>=
> > >>"awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby).  This is over 40 years ago.
> > >>
> > >>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
> > >>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>=20
> > >>=20
> > >>>Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
> > >>>From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> > >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> > >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >>>=20
> > >>>---------------------- Information from the mail
> > >>>header -----------------=
> > >>------
> > >>>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> >
> > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------=
> > >>------
> > >>>=20
> > >>>The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only region of
> > >>>t=
> > >>he
> > >>>nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_ rhymes
> > >>>wit=
> > >>h
> > >>>_thought_."
> > >>>=20
> > >>>Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_ nowhere
> > >>>o=
> > >>n
> > >>>Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's expense? Yeah=
> > >>=2C
> > >>>that must be it. Sorry.
> > >>>=20
> > >>>On the other hand....I'm curious.
> > >>>=20
> > >>>JL
> > >>>=20
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> >
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > 12/15/09
> > >11:58:00
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