Odd rhyme claim

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Wed Dec 16 16:01:29 UTC 2009 

And if you elocuted slowly (with or without extended pinky) the slant rhyme
(roughly ah/aw) might be close enough to work.

But it's starting to look as though Hollander erred if he assumed that a
full rhyme was either intended or demanded.

How much did prescribed 19th C. "elocutionary pronunciation" in America
depart from the real thing?  The actors who read books on CD are, of course,
much more careful/ formal in than they would be in ordinary speech,
but, even as slant rhyme from Concord, the Emerson case seems to go beyond
anything that would be expected today.

JL

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Geoff Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Geoff Nathan <geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Margaret Winters and I were talking about this oddity this morning, and she
> pointed out that the word 'thought' seems to have undergone an idiosyncratic
> shift from the 'awe' vowel to short-o in British English in the nineteenth
> century, as indicated by the occasional 'eye dialect' spelling 'thot'.  On
> this side of the Atlantic, in 'ah'-'awe' merger areas that would explain
> half of the puzzle (and a pinky-extended secondary stress on the final
> syllable would explain the other half).
> Just our 2c worth...
>
> Geoff
>
> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program
> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
> +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics)
>
> ----- "Paul Johnston" <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU> wrote:
>
> > From: "Paul Johnston" <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:16:44 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
> Eastern
> > Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >
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> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I'd imagine it would be with the low rounded back vowel, though Mel
> > Ott's name would be pronounced with the same vowel too.  The symbol
> > is a turned script a, which my students always confuse with a capital
> > D.  Come to think of it, at least in some New England dialects, ought
> > would be pronounced with the same vowel as well.  The vowel in
> > '"pahking cahs" is much, much fronter, and unrounded,  it's IPA [a:].
> >
> > Yours,
> > Paul Johnston
> > On Dec 15, 2009, at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> >
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> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---------
> > >
> > > At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
> > >> For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi
> > >> brothers on
> > >> NPR.
> > >
> > > Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
> > > even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel --
> > which
> > > I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
> > > ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?)  I'll have
> > to
> > > listen next Saturday.
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Tom Zurinskas" <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > >>> header -----------------------
> > >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >>> Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >>>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> -----------
> > >>>
> > >>> "Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn.
> > >>> but for my
> > >>> =
> > >>> neighbor from Mass it would.  For her "ot" would be spoken
> > >>> "ought".  The
> > >>> le=
> > >>> tter "o" often took the "awe" sound.  She would call me ~Taumee
> > >>> (~au as in
> > >>> =
> > >>> "awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby).  This is over 40 years
> > ago.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
> > >>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> =20
> > >>> =20
> > >>>> Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
> > >>>> From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> > >>>> Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> > >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >>>> =20
> > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > >>>> header -----------------=
> > >>> ------
> > >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>  > >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>> Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> > >>>>
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> ------=
> > >>> ------
> > >>>> =20
> > >>>> The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only
> > >>>> region of
> > >>>> t=
> > >>> he
> > >>>> nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_
> > >>>> rhymes
> > >>>> wit=
> > >>> h
> > >>>> _thought_."
> > >>>> =20
> > >>>> Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_
> > >>>> nowhere
> > >>>> o=
> > >>> n
> > >>>> Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's
> > >>>> expense? Yeah=
> > >>> =2C
> > >>>> that must be it. Sorry.
> > >>>> =20
> > >>>> On the other hand....I'm curious.
> > >>>> =20
> > >>>> JL
> > >>>> =20
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