Odd rhyme claim

Wed Dec 16 16:17:13 UTC 2009

But doesn't the assistant DA sound weird? And isn't she or he elocuting
when they say it? (Style goak.) And wasn't Emerson a spokesguy for culture?

One recalls, however, that Matthew Arnold thought "say" was neat-o rhyme for
"Lusitania."

We still haven't fully explicated that one.

JL

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 12/16/2009 12:21 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >As Alice says, for _patriot_ actually to "rhyme" with _thought_, there
> would
> >have to be a noticeable secondary stress on the final syllable plus a
> >unreduced or at least barely reduced vowel.
>
> That (I think!) is what I'm imagining I might hear here in
> Boston.  And if we say pay-tree-AH-tik -- and the local assistant DA
> says dee-fen-DANT -- why not PAY-tree-OTT?
>
>
> >Here again is the stanza:
> >
> >Though loth to grieve
> >The evil time's sole patriot,
> >I cannot leave
> >My buried thought
> >For the priest's cant,
> >Or statesman's rant.
> >
> >Joel may be right: / at / ("ott")  in both words.  But / at / in _thought_
> >in Concord in 1847? Hard for me to imagine.
>
> Dunno.  Is there an English or Irish dialect with that
> pronunciation?  Did Emerson affect an English pronunciation?  There
> were Irish immigrant workers camped at Walden Pond when the railroad
> was being built through there.   The web tells me the Fitchburg
> railroad laid tracks past Walden the year before Thoreau took up
> residence, and he resided at Walden from 1845 to 1847.
>
> Joel
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> >JL
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> >On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
> > > >For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi
> brothers on
> > > >NPR.
> > >
> > > Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
> > > even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel -- which
> > > I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
> > > ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?)  I'll have to
> > > listen next Saturday.
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Tom Zurinskas" <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > >>header -----------------------
> > > >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > >>Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >
> > > >>----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------------
> > > >>
> > > >>"Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn. but
> for
> > > my
> > > >>=
> > > >>neighbor from Mass it would.  For her "ot" would be spoken "ought".
>  The
> > > >>le=
> > > >>tter "o" often took the "awe" sound.  She would call me ~Taumee (~au
> as
> > > in
> > > >>=
> > > >>"awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby).  This is over 40 years ago.
> > > >>
> > > >>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
> > > >>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>=20
> > > >>=20
> > > >>>Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
> > > >>>From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> > > >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> > > >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >>>=20
> > > >>>---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > >>>header -----------------=
> > > >>------
> > > >>>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> > >
> > > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------=
> > > >>------
> > > >>>=20
> > > >>>The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only region
> of
> > > >>>t=
> > > >>he
> > > >>>nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_
> rhymes
> > > >>>wit=
> > > >>h
> > > >>>_thought_."
> > > >>>=20
> > > >>>Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_
> nowhere
> > > >>>o=
> > > >>n
> > > >>>Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's expense?
> Yeah=
> > > >>=2C
> > > >>>that must be it. Sorry.
> > > >>>=20
> > > >>>On the other hand....I'm curious.
> > > >>>=20
> > > >>>JL
> > > >>>=20
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