Odd rhyme claim
Joel S. Berson
Berson at ATT.NET
Wed Dec 16 16:41:20 UTC 2009
I hear Emerson at the Concord Lyceum, standing at the lectern,
elocuting, a cup of tea in one hand and with pinky extended. (And
see Hawthorne among the auditory, one eyebrow upraised.)
Re Jon's other message: Do assistant DA's (and town police chiefs)
elocute before TV cameras on the courthouse steps? Do TV news
readers? (Hypothetical question only!) But dee-fen-DANT has always
sounded weird to me too.
I agree Emerson likely didn't want to sound like the Irish of the
shanties on the shore of the pond. Rather, I wondered whether there
was a shared English-Irish accent, one perhaps picked up not only by
Emerson but also by Boston Irish assistant DA's and police chiefs
from their potato-famine ancestors of the 1840s. (Another question
not really begging for a reply.)
Joel
At 12/16/2009 11:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>And if you elocuted slowly (with or without extended pinky) the slant rhyme
>(roughly ah/aw) might be close enough to work.
>
>But it's starting to look as though Hollander erred if he assumed that a
>full rhyme was either intended or demanded.
>
>How much did prescribed 19th C. "elocutionary pronunciation" in America
>depart from the real thing? The actors who read books on CD are, of course,
>much more careful/ formal in than they would be in ordinary speech,
>but, even as slant rhyme from Concord, the Emerson case seems to go beyond
>anything that would be expected today.
>
>JL
>
>On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Geoff Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Geoff Nathan <geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Margaret Winters and I were talking about this oddity this morning, and she
> > pointed out that the word 'thought' seems to have undergone an
> idiosyncratic
> > shift from the 'awe' vowel to short-o in British English in the nineteenth
> > century, as indicated by the occasional 'eye dialect' spelling 'thot'. On
> > this side of the Atlantic, in 'ah'-'awe' merger areas that would explain
> > half of the puzzle (and a pinky-extended secondary stress on the final
> > syllable would explain the other half).
> > Just our 2c worth...
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> > Geoffrey S. Nathan
> > Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> > and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program
> > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
> > +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics)
> >
> > ----- "Paul Johnston" <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > > From: "Paul Johnston" <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:16:44 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
> > Eastern
> > > Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > I'd imagine it would be with the low rounded back vowel, though Mel
> > > Ott's name would be pronounced with the same vowel too. The symbol
> > > is a turned script a, which my students always confuse with a capital
> > > D. Come to think of it, at least in some New England dialects, ought
> > > would be pronounced with the same vowel as well. The vowel in
> > > '"pahking cahs" is much, much fronter, and unrounded, it's IPA [a:].
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > > Paul Johnston
> > > On Dec 15, 2009, at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ---------
> > > >
> > > > At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
> > > >> For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi
> > > >> brothers on
> > > >> NPR.
> > > >
> > > > Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
> > > > even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel --
> > > which
> > > > I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
> > > > ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?) I'll have
> > > to
> > > > listen next Saturday.
> > > >
> > > > Joel
> > > >
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Tom Zurinskas" <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > >> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > >>> header -----------------------
> > > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > >>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> > > >>>
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> -----------
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn.
> > > >>> but for my
> > > >>> =
> > > >>> neighbor from Mass it would. For her "ot" would be spoken
> > > >>> "ought". The
> > > >>> le=
> > > >>> tter "o" often took the "awe" sound. She would call me ~Taumee
> > > >>> (~au as in
> > > >>> =
> > > >>> "awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby). This is over 40 years
> > > ago.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
> > > >>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> =20
> > > >>> =20
> > > >>>> Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
> > > >>>> From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> > > >>>> Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> > > >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >>>> =20
> > > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > >>>> header -----------------=
> > > >>> ------
> > > >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > >>>> Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> > > >>>>
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>> ------=
> > > >>> ------
> > > >>>> =20
> > > >>>> The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only
> > > >>>> region of
> > > >>>> t=
> > > >>> he
> > > >>>> nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_
> > > >>>> rhymes
> > > >>>> wit=
> > > >>> h
> > > >>>> _thought_."
> > > >>>> =20
> > > >>>> Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_
> > > >>>> nowhere
> > > >>>> o=
> > > >>> n
> > > >>>> Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's
> > > >>>> expense? Yeah=
> > > >>> =2C
> > > >>>> that must be it. Sorry.
> > > >>>> =20
> > > >>>> On the other hand....I'm curious.
> > > >>>> =20
> > > >>>> JL
> > > >>>> =20
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> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> -----------
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
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