Odd rhyme claim

Wed Dec 16 16:42:57 UTC 2009

At 10:58 AM -0500 12/16/09, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>At 12/16/2009 12:21 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>As Alice says, for _patriot_ actually to "rhyme" with _thought_, there would
>>have to be a noticeable secondary stress on the final syllable plus a
>>unreduced or at least barely reduced vowel.
>
>That (I think!) is what I'm imagining I might hear here in
>Boston.  And if we say pay-tree-AH-tik -- and the local assistant DA
>says dee-fen-DANT -- why not PAY-tree-OTT?
>

I can imagine a high-end recreational boat purveyor urging their
upscale clientele to "Put the Yacht Back in Patri-OTT"

LH

>>Here again is the stanza:
>>
>>Though loth to grieve
>>The evil time's sole patriot,
>>I cannot leave
>>My buried thought
>>For the priest's cant,
>>Or statesman's rant.
>>
>>Joel may be right: / at / ("ott")  in both words.  But / at / in _thought_
>>in Concord in 1847? Hard for me to imagine.
>
>Dunno.  Is there an English or Irish dialect with that
>pronunciation?  Did Emerson affect an English pronunciation?  There
>were Irish immigrant workers camped at Walden Pond when the railroad
>was being built through there.   The web tells me the Fitchburg
>railroad laid tracks past Walden the year before Thoreau took up
>residence, and he resided at Walden from 1845 to 1847.
>
>Joel
>
>>JL
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>>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  -----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>>  Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>  At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
>>>  >For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi brothers on
>>>  >NPR.
>>>
>>>  Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
>>>  even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel -- which
>>>  I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
>>>  ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?)  I'll have to
>>>  listen next Saturday.
>>>
>>>  Joel
>>>
>>>  >----- Original Message -----
>>>  >From: "Tom Zurinskas" <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>>>  >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  >Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
>>>  >Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  >>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>  >>header -----------------------
>>>  >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  >>Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>>>  >>Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>
>>>  >>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>---------------
>>>  >>
>>>  >>"Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn. but for
>>>  my
>>>  >>=
>>>  >>neighbor from Mass it would.  For her "ot" would be spoken "ought".  The
>>>  >>le=
>>>  >>tter "o" often took the "awe" sound.  She would call me ~Taumee (~au as
>>>  in
>>>  >>=
>>>  >>"awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby).  This is over 40 years ago.
>>>  >>
>>>  >>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
>>>  >>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>  >>
>>>  >>
>>>  >>=20
>>>  >>=20
>>>  >>>Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
>>>  >>>From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>  >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>  >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>  >>>=20
>>>  >>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>  >>>header -----------------=
>>>  >>------
>>>  >>>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  >>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>  >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>
>>>  >>>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>----------=
>>>  >>------
>>>  >>>=20
>>>  >>>The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only region of
>>>  >>>t=
>>>  >>he
>>>  >>>nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_ rhymes
>>>  >>>wit=
>>>  >>h
>>>  >>>_thought_."
>>>  >>>=20
>>>  >>>Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_ nowhere
>>>  >>>o=
>>>  >>n
>>>  >>>Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's expense? Yeah=
>>  > >>=2C
>>>  >>>that must be it. Sorry.
>>>  >>>=20
>>>  >>>On the other hand....I'm curious.
>>>  >>>=20
>>>  >>>JL
>>>  >>>=20
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>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"There You Go Again...Using Reason on the Planet of the Duck-Billed
>>Platypus"
>>
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