Odd rhyme claim

Thu Dec 17 05:59:13 UTC 2009

You forgot about the "i"s in "patriotic".  Are they both the same sound as the first "i" in "idiot"?

I agree that the "tic" in "patriotic" is generally pronounced "dic" in USA English.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
see truespel.com phonetic spelling

----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:49:45 -0500
> From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In "patriotic," the sound of the "o" is "ah," as in the final syllable of
> "moron."
>
> The sound the "a" is "ay" as in "lamebrain."
>
> JL
>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> But what sound does the "o" in "patriodic" have. Could it be the sound in
>> "on, off, to, go, of, pilot"? And the "i"s have two different sounds, I
>> assume? And the "a" is as in "pay"?
>>
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>
>>
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I say PAY-tree-it. And "patriodic" (with a flap).
>>>
>>> Always have, always will.
>>>
>>> JL
>>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 6:56 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>
>>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> How do we say "patriot" now. From thefreedictionary.com I hear
>>>> PAY-tree-it (~paetree'it) for USA and PAY-tree-et (~paetree'et) for UK.
>>>>
>>>> The word "patriotic" in USA becomes pay-tree-AH-dik (~paetree"aadik),
>> while
>>>> in UK it's pad-ree-AH-tic (~padree"aatik).
>>>>
>>>> Note the changes in pronouncing letter "t" the second most popular
>> letter
>>>> in English text (ref truespel book 4). I just did a analysis of
>>>> pronunciation of the letter "t". It's at http://justpaste.it/mq
>>>>
>>>> Note that the words "awe" and "ah" both spell vowel phonemes, but use a
>>>> consonant. This is bad form for a phonetic respell system. Truespel uses
>>>> ~au for "awe" and ~aa for "ah". In text the appearance of tradstreeng
>> "au"
>>>> does excede "aw" for spelling the "awe" sound, although "al" is tops
>> (ref.
>>>> truespel book 4). The "ah" sound is spelled by letter "o" twice as often
>> as
>>>> letter "a", but both those letters spell other sounds more often, so
>> "aa"
>>>> was chosen to phonetically spell the "ah" sound in truespel. This is
>> done
>>>> by BCC text spelling for phonetics as well.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>>>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:56:19 -0500
>>>>> From: Berson at ATT.NET
>>>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: "Joel S. Berson"
>>>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>
>>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
>>>>>>For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi brothers
>>>> on
>>>>>>NPR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
>>>>> even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel -- which
>>>>> I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
>>>>> ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?) I'll have to
>>>>> listen next Saturday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joel
>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Tom Zurinskas"
>>>>>>To:
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn. but
>> for
>>>> my
>>>>>>>=
>>>>>>>neighbor from Mass it would. For her "ot" would be spoken "ought". The
>>>>>>>le=
>>>>>>>tter "o" often took the "awe" sound. She would call me ~Taumee (~au as
>>>> in
>>>>>>>=
>>>>>>>"awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby). This is over 40 years ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
>>>>>>>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
>>>>>>>>From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>>>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>>>header -----------------=
>>>>>>>------
>>>>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>>>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>>>>>------
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only region
>> of
>>>>>>>>t=
>>>>>>>he
>>>>>>>>nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_ rhymes
>>>>>>>>wit=
>>>>>>>h
>>>>>>>>_thought_."
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_
>> nowhere
>>>>>>>>o=
>>>>>>>n
>>>>>>>>Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's expense?
>>>> Yeah=
>>>>>>>=2C
>>>>>>>>that must be it. Sorry.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>On the other hand....I'm curious.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>JL
>>>>>>>>=20
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