Surprise

Thu Feb 19 03:27:19 UTC 2009

>Why not "laf" instead of "laugh"?  This is working with what we have, not
what we had centuries ago.

Some of us actually like the history inherent in those old, unusual words.
To hell with efficiency, I say.

Scot

On 2/18/09, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Surprise
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I was taught that there was no "t" pronounced in "often" and so I
> obeyed.  I was taught that there was no "r" in surprise, and so I obeyed.  I
> would hope it that reasonable minds would work toward a common English so
> that there is minimal misinterpretation.  That includes the reduction of
> homonyms expecially created by the awe to ah merger.
>
> The spelling of English "serves well"?  Not as good as it could.  There are
> twice as many dislectic English speakers as Italian speakers.  Italian has a
> more consistently phonetic spelling.
>
> Actually, with pronunciation changes should come spelling changes as
> well.  No?  Why not "laf" instead of "laugh"?  This is working with what we
> have, not what we had centuries ago.
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:36:59 -0500
> > From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: Re: Surprise
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Herb Stahlke
> > Subject: Re: Surprise
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > Phonemes are not determined by acts of Congress, God, of any other
> > source of authority. They develop and change on the basis of usage.
> > If you insist on the alphabetic principal, then you need to be
> > pronouncing all gh sequences, using the velar fricative represented in
> > IPA by [x]. The sound was present in the English of 15th c. London
> > when Caxton set up his printing business and established London
> > pronunciation as the basis of modern English spelling. Pronunciation
> > has changed, especially dropping /x/, or in words like "tough" and
> > "enough" merging it to /f/. If you had lived in 16th c. London would
> > you have opposed the dropping of the phoneme /x/, especially since the
> > gh spellings continued to be used?
> >
> > One of the strengths of English orthography, as someone else has
> > already noted, is that it violates the alphabetic principle, with the
> > result that one writing system serves well for all English speakers,
> > including speakers of dialects of English that are barely mutually
> > intelligible.
> >
> > So some speakers of American English have the low back merger, others
> > have the lax front merger resulting in "pin" and "pen" becoming
> > identical, others have /r/-drop, and still others, like me, have split
> > /ai/ and /au/ into /ai, @i/ and /au, @u/ creating two new phonemes.
> > Languages do this all the time, and these changes rarely lead to
> > misunderstandings among speakers of American English, although I do
> > remember meeting the wife of a new colleague and drawing a complete
> > blank when she asked, in good Bostonian, "Does your wife like
> > /bA:gIns/? (where A is the vowel of "caught" and I is the vowel of
> > "kit"). I thought of Bilbo; she was thinking of flea markets.
> >
> > Herb
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >> Subject: Re: Surprise
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> The effect of TV. Very interesting. I think TV is the very reason
> awe-dro=
> >> pping is going on. Many west coast folks are bringing that dialect
> change =
> >> into the media. My wife's caught it now. This morining it was ~kaafee
> ins=
> >> tead of ~kaufee for the word "coffee". =20
> >>
> >> But that change is an unconscious one. =20
> >>
> >> =20
> >>
> >> Standing up against r-dropping is a good thing. It preserves the
> alphabeti=
> >> cal principle. Standing up against awe-dropping as well.
> Unconsciously=2C=
> >> America is dropping a phoneme of English. =20
> >>
> >> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
> >> see truespel.com
> >>
> >>
> >> =20
> >> =20
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =20
> >>> Date: Tue=2C 17 Feb 2009 11:23:30 -0500
> >>> From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> >>> Subject: Re: Surprise
> >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>=20
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------=
> >> ------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> >>> Subject: Re: Surprise
> >>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> >> ------
> >>>=20
> >>> I rarely pronounce the first r in "surprise=2C" but I can't imagine
> elidi=
> >> ng it
> >>> in "surmise" (now that I try=2C it actually seems difficult!).
> >>>=20
> >>> You may not believe this=2C but...when I was four or five I began to
> noti=
> >> ce
> >>> that most New Yorkers=2C including my family=2C were what I would now
> cal=
> >> l
> >>> "non-rhotic" - quite different from most of the old-movie cowboys I was
> >>> watching every afternoon on Channel 13.
> >>>=20
> >>> I deliberately set out to get rhotic so that=2C when I grew up and went
> >>> West=2C I'd fit right in with Roy and the other punchers. And you know
> >>> what? My dream partly came true! I rarely miss an r !
> >>>=20
> >>> Coincidence? Or...?
> >>>=20
> >>> JL
> >>> On Tue=2C Feb 17=2C 2009 at 10:57 AM=2C wrote:
> >>>=20
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>> Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM
> >>>> Subject: Re: Surprise
> >>>>
> >>>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> >> --------
> >>>>
> >>>> This is variable in my speech=2C though the /r/ tends to be realized
> on=
> >> ly in
> >>>> nonallegro speech. I expect this is true of most rhotic dialects. I
> don=
> >> 't
> >>>> THINK that I have deletion in "surmise"--but I am wary of self-reports
> >>>> (maybe it gets weakened variably in allegro speech).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Other such words: surreal ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Randy Alexander
> >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>> Sent: Mon=2C 16 Feb 2009 11:07 am
> >>>> Subject: [ADS-L] Surprise
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Does anyone with a rhotic dialect rhoticize the first "r" in
> >>>> "surprise" (I don't).
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. Does anyone know of any other words that in your rhotic dialect
> >>>> that have an unrhoticized postvocalic "r"?
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Randy Alexander
> >>>> Jilin City=2C China
> >>>> My Manchu studies blog:
> >>>> http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>
> >>>=20
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
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