Surprise

Thu Feb 19 04:07:25 UTC 2009

Right on, Scot!
There's a sort of inherent contradiction in this whole enterprise of
totally revising the written language when so little regard is shown
for literature.
I was sitting here bemusedly regarding TZ's curious post (below)  &
thinking it odd that TZ has no apparent interest in the development of
English  & the riches hinted at by the retained spellings of
centuries, & wondering how to put it, when  your post popped up.
AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Feb 18, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Scot LaFaive <slafaive at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Surprise
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> Why not "laf" instead of "laugh"?  This is working with what we
>> have, not
> what we had centuries ago.
>
> Some of us actually like the history inherent in those old, unusual
> words.
> To hell with efficiency, I say.
>
> Scot
>
>
> On 2/18/09, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Surprise
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I was taught that there was no "t" pronounced in "often" and so I
>> obeyed.  I was taught that there was no "r" in surprise, and so I
>> obeyed.  I
>> would hope it that reasonable minds would work toward a common
>> English so
>> that there is minimal misinterpretation.  That includes the
>> reduction of
>> homonyms expecially created by the awe to ah merger.
>>
>> The spelling of English "serves well"?  Not as good as it could.
>> There are
>> twice as many dislectic English speakers as Italian speakers.
>> Italian has a
>> more consistently phonetic spelling.
>>
>> Actually, with pronunciation changes should come spelling changes as
>> well.  No?  Why not "laf" instead of "laugh"?  This is working with
>> what we
>> have, not what we had centuries ago.
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> see truespel.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:36:59 -0500
>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: Surprise
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>> Subject: Re: Surprise
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Tom,
>>>
>>> Phonemes are not determined by acts of Congress, God, of any other
>>> source of authority. They develop and change on the basis of usage.
>>> If you insist on the alphabetic principal, then you need to be
>>> pronouncing all gh sequences, using the velar fricative
>>> represented in
>>> IPA by [x]. The sound was present in the English of 15th c. London
>>> when Caxton set up his printing business and established London
>>> pronunciation as the basis of modern English spelling. Pronunciation
>>> has changed, especially dropping /x/, or in words like "tough" and
>>> "enough" merging it to /f/. If you had lived in 16th c. London would
>>> you have opposed the dropping of the phoneme /x/, especially since
>>> the
>>> gh spellings continued to be used?
>>>
>>> One of the strengths of English orthography, as someone else has
>>> already noted, is that it violates the alphabetic principle, with
>>> the
>>> result that one writing system serves well for all English speakers,
>>> including speakers of dialects of English that are barely mutually
>>> intelligible.
>>>
>>> So some speakers of American English have the low back merger,
>>> others
>>> have the lax front merger resulting in "pin" and "pen" becoming
>>> identical, others have /r/-drop, and still others, like me, have
>>> split
>>> /ai/ and /au/ into /ai, @i/ and /au, @u/ creating two new phonemes.
>>> Languages do this all the time, and these changes rarely lead to
>>> misunderstandings among speakers of American English, although I do
>>> remember meeting the wife of a new colleague and drawing a complete
>>> blank when she asked, in good Bostonian, "Does your wife like
>>> /bA:gIns/? (where A is the vowel of "caught" and I is the vowel of
>>> "kit"). I thought of Bilbo; she was thinking of flea markets.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Re: Surprise
>>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The effect of TV. Very interesting. I think TV is the very reason
>> awe-dro=
>>>> pping is going on. Many west coast folks are bringing that dialect
>> change =
>>>> into the media. My wife's caught it now. This morining it was
>>>> ~kaafee
>> ins=
>>>> tead of ~kaufee for the word "coffee". =20
>>>>
>>>> But that change is an unconscious one. =20
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>>
>>>> Standing up against r-dropping is a good thing. It preserves the
>> alphabeti=
>>>> cal principle. Standing up against awe-dropping as well.
>> Unconsciously=2C=
>>>> America is dropping a phoneme of English. =20
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>>> Date: Tue=2C 17 Feb 2009 11:23:30 -0500
>>>>> From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Surprise
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>> =20
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>>> Subject: Re: Surprise
>>>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I rarely pronounce the first r in "surprise=2C" but I can't
>>>>> imagine
>> elidi=
>>>> ng it
>>>>> in "surmise" (now that I try=2C it actually seems difficult!).
>>>>> =20
>>>>> You may not believe this=2C but...when I was four or five I
>>>>> began to
>> noti=
>>>> ce
>>>>> that most New Yorkers=2C including my family=2C were what I
>>>>> would now
>> cal=
>>>> l
>>>>> "non-rhotic" - quite different from most of the old-movie
>>>>> cowboys I was
>>>>> watching every afternoon on Channel 13.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I deliberately set out to get rhotic so that=2C when I grew up
>>>>> and went
>>>>> West=2C I'd fit right in with Roy and the other punchers. And
>>>>> you know
>>>>> what? My dream partly came true! I rarely miss an r !
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Coincidence? Or...?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> JL
>>>>> On Tue=2C Feb 17=2C 2009 at 10:57 AM=2C wrote:
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Surprise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> --------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is variable in my speech=2C though the /r/ tends to be
>>>>>> realized
>> on=
>>>> ly in
>>>>>> nonallegro speech. I expect this is true of most rhotic
>>>>>> dialects. I
>> don=
>>>> 't
>>>>>> THINK that I have deletion in "surmise"--but I am wary of self-
>>>>>> reports
>>>>>> (maybe it gets weakened variably in allegro speech).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other such words: surreal ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Randy Alexander
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>> Sent: Mon=2C 16 Feb 2009 11:07 am
>>>>>> Subject: [ADS-L] Surprise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Does anyone with a rhotic dialect rhoticize the first "r" in
>>>>>> "surprise" (I don't).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Does anyone know of any other words that in your rhotic
>>>>>> dialect
>>>>>> that have an unrhoticized postvocalic "r"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Randy Alexander
>>>>>> Jilin City=2C China
>>>>>> My Manchu studies blog:
>>>>>> http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu
>>>>>>
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>>>>> =20
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