ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Thu Feb 26 02:40:34 UTC 2009


At 6:17 PM -0500 2/25/09, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>I have a contrast between "just" meaning "fair" and the adverb "just"
>as in "just a minute."  The adjective has inverted lower case a, the
>lower mid central vowel.  The adverb has barred i.
>
>Herb

Hmmm.  I agree about the barred-i for the adverb,
but for me the adjective has something more like
a wedge.  Or maybe I've never actually considered
what that upside-down print a is and whether or
not it's part of my inventory; I see on the IPA
chart that it's slightly less back than the wedge
and slightly lower.  I really have no idea;
vowels are tough cookies.

LH

>
>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Paul A Johnston, Jr.
><paul.johnston at wmich.edu> wrote:
>>  ---------------------- Information from the
>>mail header -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       "Paul A Johnston, Jr." <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>  Subject:      Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Wilson,
>>  Yes, there is, and there are probably
>>languages (most likely in Northern Asia) that
>>contrast the two.
>>  To me, the unrounded /u/ has lower pitch, and
>>sounds more "/u/-like" to someone who doesn't
>>  have one; the barred /i/ sounds more /i/ or
>>/I/ like.  Compare the Japanese u to the
>>Russian sound
>>  written with what looks like a joined b and I.
>>Many of us will have a lowered barred /i/ in
>>things like
>>  rib, rip, and when unstressed in many words (I
>>have it in the second syllable of things like
>>chicken).
>>  Unrounded /u/ is sporadic at best in
>>English--I've worked with dialects that usually
>>have unrounded
>>  /o/ in CUP, and unrounded /u/ in this class
>>occurs, but at very low frequency.
>>
>>  Paul Johnston
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>  Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:15 pm
>>  Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------
>>>  -----------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>  Subject:      Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>  --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  -----------
>>>
>>>  I agree, except for one minor quibble. Is there really an audible
>>>  distinction between an unrounded /u/ and a barred /i/? I willing to be
>>>  taken to school on this point.
>>>
>>>  -Wilson
>>>  â¤"â¤"â¤"
>>>  All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>  come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>  -----
>>>  -Mark Twain
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Laurence Horn
>>>  <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>>>  > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
>>>  -------------
>>>  > Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  > Poster: Â  Â  Â  Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>  > Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009
>>>  (#2009-55)
>>>  > ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  -------------
>>>  >
>>>  > At 11:36 AM -0500 2/25/09, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>  >>FWIW, a friend of mine, a native of Worcester, pronounces the name
>>>  >>something like "Wistuh." I heard the same or, at least, a very
>>>  similar>>pronunciation, used here in Boston by a guy who said that
>  >> he had been
>>>  >>to - not "lived in" - "Wistuh." I'd expect a lower vowel than
>>>  what is
>>>  >>probably an unrounded /u/. Naturally, another possibility is that my
>>>  >>hearing simply isn't what it used to be.
>>>  >>
>>>  >>-Wilson
>>>  >
>>>  > The *real* natives did front the stressed vowel more than suggested
>>>  > by my implied [U] below, but not really lowered to a wedge [^]
>>>  > either, I don't think. Â Maybe a stressed barred-i? Â Of course the
>  >> > unrounding is a bit tricky to extract because of the rounded /w/ it
>>>  > follows, but I think barred-i gets us pretty close: Â neither as
>>>  back> as in "wuss" nor as front as in "wistful".
>>>  >
>>>  > LH
>>>  >
>>>  >>---
>>>  >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>  complaint to
>>>  >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>  >>-----
>>>  >>-Mark Twain
>>>  >>
>>>  >>
>>>  >>
>>>  >>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Amy West <medievalist at w-sts.com>
>>>  wrote:>>> Â ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  >>>-----------------------
>>>  >>> Â Sender: ? Â ? Â ? Â American Dialect Society <ADS-
>>>  L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> Â Poster: ? Â ? Â ? Â Amy West
>>>  <medievalist at W-STS.COM>
>>>  >>> Â Subject: ? Â ? Â ? Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb
>>>  2009 (#2009-55)
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  --------------
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Â OK, now I'm understanding what Paul Johnston described as the
>>>  lip>>> Â /r/. (I don't have a good phonological background).
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Â I'm here in Worcester, though not a native. There is only one
>>>  kid in
>>>  >>> Â my son's cohort who speaks like that, and it sounds funny to
>>>  the rest
>>>  >>> Â of the cohort.
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Â Woo State has a Communications Sciences and Disorders
>>>  department with
>>>  >>> Â a clinic. If people are interested in investigating this as
>>>  an aspect
>>>  >>> Â of a standard or nonstandard Worcester accent, perhaps we can
>>>  enlist>>> Â their aid in getting some hard data. Not just from the
>>>  clinic, which
>>>  >>> Â would be biased, but having students do surveys, etc.
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Â Right now, my impression is that if it is not classified as a
>>>  "speech>>> Â impediment/defect" it is a nonstandard variant of the
>>>  local>>> Â accent/pronunciation.
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Â ---Amy West
>>>  >>> Â residing in Worcester almost 4 years
>>>  >>> Â working here almost 8 years
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>>>Date: ? Â ? Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:45:41 -0500
>>>  >>>>From: ? Â ? Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>  >>>>Subject: Re: ~ (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>  >>>>
>>>  >>>>At 9:58 AM -0600 2/23/09, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>  >>>>>I am not a native of Massachusetts, but i lived north of
>>>  Boston for
>>>  >>>>>nine years from 9.5. I never heard anyone up in Essex county who
>>>  >>>>>sounded like Barbara Walters--and no one ever pronounced my
>>>  first name
>>>  >>>>>the way she is stereotyped as saying hers. (I remember people
>>>  in my
>>>  >>>>>neck of the woods making fun of her!)
>>>  >>>>>
>>>  >>>>>Barbara
>>>  >>>>
>>>  >>>>
>>>  >>>>I just checked with my daughter, who recently endured...er, spent
>>>  >>>>four years as an undergraduate in Worcester (a.k.a. Wuhsta),
>>>  and she
>>>  >>>>doesn't recall anyone speaking quite like BW, despite the rampant
>>>  >>>>non-rhoticity. ? "Babra" si, "Babwa" no.
>>>  >>>>
>>>  >>>>LH
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Â ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  >>> Â The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>
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>
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