ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)

Fri Feb 27 19:47:21 UTC 2009

Then I think you're missing a phonetically real distinction, and that
indicates only that you could benefit from the ear training that a
course in phonetics would provide you with.  The distinctions are
real.

Herb

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Â  Â  Â  Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sorry to disagree. Â I hear "just" sometimes spoken as "jist" (~jist) with a short i in conversation. Â But just yesterday I heard ~joost (short oo, ~oo as in "wood") by someone in TV media. Â I don't think anyone would argue that the first pronunciation of "just" by m-w.com is usual. Â It's a solid short u. Â Why m-w.com uses a schwa there I'll never know. Â Unfortunately, for all short u's they use \ Â  \ as u in abut, (an upside down "e" that apparently won't copy paste) . Â Very very unfortunate notation. Â Everyone understands using a letter "u" for the "uh" sound.
>
>> As to an example of a word with [i"], I have it regularly for the
>> vowel in the unstressed suffix -ing. I have it in the third syllable
>> of "dirigible".
>
> Not so as I hear it. Â Note that m-w.com calls the third "i" in dirigible a schwa, the same as short u. Â I hear it spoken as short i.
>
> from m-w.com Â  Main Entry:1diÂ·riÂ·giÂ·ble
> Pronunciation:\Ëˆdir-É™-jÉ™-bÉ™l, dÉ™-Ëˆri-jÉ™-\
> I hear the speaker say ~deerijibool and ~derrijibool.
>
> I've never heard stress on the first syllable of dirigable before. Â But the third "i" I hear as short i as in "it". Â However, it is not the same as the first "i" in "linguistic" as spoken by m-w.com. Â ~leengwwistik
>
> I appears to me that m-w.com has been making many changes in its site. Â One of them is to go back and repronounce "ing" "ink" with short i's. Â This makes them sound very odd and not like real pronounciation. Â I believe they've made speakers speak according to the phonetics and not according to real life.
>
> In m-w.com the word "instinctive" sounds fine. Â The word "instinct" with short i before n sounds wrong. Â In real life the n becomes velar (top back of mouth instead of a normal front n) before the "k" sound, and the "i" becomes long e ~ee.
>
> An "i" said as long e is very typical. Â Take "lingua franca" which is spelled in m-w.com with short i ~i surely should be long e ~ee because its Italian. Â The speaker says long e. Â Also for "linguist" yet a short i is in the foespel. Â Those short i sounds are in error for "ing", and I think m-w.com is forcing them to be said short i to agree with the foespel.
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:46:09 -0500
>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> You're not hearing "jist," which is a distinct word from "just."
>> You're hearing it with a different vowel from lax high front. It's
>> high central unrounded, and the IPA symbol is barred-i. /dZIst/
>> "gist" and [dZi"st] "just (adv.)" are not the same word and don't have
>> the same vowel.
>>
>> About "juiced," you wrote, "Curiously above has two pronunciations. Ã‚
>> The first is ~just. Ã‚ The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds
>> like "juiced". Ã‚ I've never heard this in USA. Ã‚ Sounds like UK to
>> me." I've never heard this pronunciation either, but I assume the
>> lexicographers have evidence for it.
>>
>> As to an example of a word with [i"], I have it regularly for the
>> vowel in the unstressed suffix -ing. I have it in the third syllable
>> of "dirigible" and anywhere else in an unstressed syllable containing
>> a palato-alveolar or a velar and a schwa. [i"] is not phonemic in
>> English; it's a predictable variant, allophone if you wish, of schwa
>> in this environment.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I hear "jist" for "just" all the time in fluent speech. I've never heard long u, to make "just" sound like "juiced".
>>>
>>> Got an example of a word with /i"/ in it?
>>>
>>> Schwa is not good because it represents so many sounds.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>> see truespel.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:41:48 -0500
>>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> I checked both mw and ahd sites, and the only spoken pronunciation I
>>>> found on either was /dZVst/. I heard no /dZIst/ and no /dZi"st/
>>>> (where /i"/ is barred-i, a high central unrounded vowel). The /dZust/
>>>> pronunciation on the mw site is specifically an archaic pronunciation
>>>> of "joust," probably reflecting its pronunciation before the Great
>>>> Vowel Shift. It's a different word. The problem with these
>>>> dictionary pronunciations is that they are citation forms, not forms
>>>> as used in sentences. That will inevitably change pronunciation. The
>>>> adverbial form is frequently transcribed with a schwa /dZ at st/, which
>>>> isn't a bad choice. Phonetically, that schwa gets raised to a
>>>> barred-i /i"/ because of the palato-alveolar affricate before it, just
>>>> as the unstressed vowel in the suffix -ing frequently comes out as a
>>>> barred-i because of the velar nasal following it.
>>>>
>>>> Herb.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Tom Zurinskas
>>>>> Subject: Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> The word "just" ~just (with short u) I hear often said ~jist (with short i) in certain phrases (just a minute)
>>>>>
>>>>> from m-w.com
>>>>> Main Entry:1just
>>>>> Pronunciation:\Ã‹ jÃ‰ st, Ã‹ jÃƒÂ¼st\
>>>>>
>>>>> Curiously above has two pronunciations. Ã‚ The first is ~just. Ã‚ The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds like "juiced". Ã‚ I've never heard this in USA. Ã‚ Sounds like UK to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:40:34 -0500
>>>>>> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 6:17 PM -0500 2/25/09, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>>>>>>>I have a contrast between "just" meaning "fair" and the adverb "just"
>>>>>>>as in "just a minute." The adjective has inverted lower case a, the
>>>>>>>lower mid central vowel. The adverb has barred i.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Herb
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm. I agree about the barred-i for the adverb,
>>>>>> but for me the adjective has something more like
>>>>>> a wedge. Or maybe I've never actually considered
>>>>>> what that upside-down print a is and whether or
>>>>>> not it's part of my inventory; I see on the IPA
>>>>>> chart that it's slightly less back than the wedge
>>>>>> and slightly lower. I really have no idea;
>>>>>> vowels are tough cookies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Paul A Johnston, Jr.
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the
>>>>>>>>mail header -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: "Paul A Johnston, Jr."
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wilson,
>>>>>>>> Yes, there is, and there are probably
>>>>>>>>languages (most likely in Northern Asia) that
>>>>>>>>contrast the two.
>>>>>>>> To me, the unrounded /u/ has lower pitch, and
>>>>>>>>sounds more "/u/-like" to someone who doesn't
>>>>>>>> have one; the barred /i/ sounds more /i/ or
>>>>>>>>/I/ like. Compare the Japanese u to the
>>>>>>>>Russian sound
>>>>>>>> written with what looks like a joined b and I.
>>>>>>>>Many of us will have a lowered barred /i/ in
>>>>>>>>things like
>>>>>>>> rib, rip, and when unstressed in many words (I
>>>>>>>>have it in the second syllable of things like
>>>>>>>>chicken).
>>>>>>>> Unrounded /u/ is sporadic at best in
>>>>>>>>English--I've worked with dialects that usually
>>>>>>>>have unrounded
>>>>>>>> /o/ in CUP, and unrounded /u/ in this class
>>>>>>>>occurs, but at very low frequency.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Paul Johnston
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:15 pm
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------
>>>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree, except for one minor quibble. Is there really an audible
>>>>>>>>> distinction between an unrounded /u/ and a barred /i/? I willing to be
>>>>>>>>> taken to school on this point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>>>> ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚Â¤"ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚Â¤"ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚Â¤"
>>>>>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
>>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>> Sender: Ã˜Â¢ Ã˜Â¢ Ã˜Â¢ American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>>> Poster: Ã˜Â¢ Ã˜Â¢ Ã˜Â¢ Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Ã˜Â¢ Ã˜Â¢ Ã˜Â¢ Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009
>>>>>>>>> (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At 11:36 AM -0500 2/25/09, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>FWIW, a friend of mine, a native of Worcester, pronounces the name
>>>>>>>>>>>something like "Wistuh." I heard the same or, at least, a very
>>>>>>>>> similar>>pronunciation, used here in Boston by a guy who said that
>>>>>>>>> he had been
>>>>>>>>>>>to - not "lived in" - "Wistuh." I'd expect a lower vowel than
>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>probably an unrounded /u/. Naturally, another possibility is that my
>>>>>>>>>>>hearing simply isn't what it used to be.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The *real* natives did front the stressed vowel more than suggested
>>>>>>>>>> by my implied [U] below, but not really lowered to a wedge [^]
>>>>>>>>>> either, I don't think. Ã˜Â¢ Maybe a stressed barred-i? Ã˜Â¢ Of course the
>>>>>>>>>> unrounding is a bit tricky to extract because of the rounded /w/ it
>>>>>>>>>> follows, but I think barred-i gets us pretty close: Ã˜Â¢ neither as
>>>>>>>>> back> as in "wuss" nor as front as in "wistful".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>>>>>> complaint to
>>>>>>>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>>>>>>-Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Amy West
>>>>>>>>> wrote:>>> Ã˜Â¢ ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ Sender: ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Ã˜Â¢ American Dialect Society>>>> L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> Ã˜Â¢ Poster: ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Ã˜Â¢ Amy West
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ Subject: ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ OK, now I'm understanding what Paul Johnston described as the
>>>>>>>>> lip>>> Ã˜Â¢ /r/. (I don't have a good phonological background).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ I'm here in Worcester, though not a native. There is only one
>>>>>>>>> kid in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ my son's cohort who speaks like that, and it sounds funny to
>>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ of the cohort.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ Woo State has a Communications Sciences and Disorders
>>>>>>>>> department with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ a clinic. If people are interested in investigating this as
>>>>>>>>> an aspect
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ of a standard or nonstandard Worcester accent, perhaps we can
>>>>>>>>> enlist>>> Ã˜Â¢ their aid in getting some hard data. Not just from the
>>>>>>>>> clinic, which
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ would be biased, but having students do surveys, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ Right now, my impression is that if it is not classified as a
>>>>>>>>> "speech>>> Ã˜Â¢ impediment/defect" it is a nonstandard variant of the
>>>>>>>>> local>>> Ã˜Â¢ accent/pronunciation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ ---Amy West
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ residing in Worcester almost 4 years
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ working here almost 8 years
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Date: ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:45:41 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>>>>From: ? Ã˜Â¢ ? Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: ~ (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>At 9:58 AM -0600 2/23/09, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I am not a native of Massachusetts, but i lived north of
>>>>>>>>> Boston for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nine years from 9.5. I never heard anyone up in Essex county who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sounded like Barbara Walters--and no one ever pronounced my
>>>>>>>>> first name
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the way she is stereotyped as saying hers. (I remember people
>>>>>>>>> in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>neck of the woods making fun of her!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barbara
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I just checked with my daughter, who recently endured...er, spent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>four years as an undergraduate in Worcester (a.k.a. Wuhsta),
>>>>>>>>> and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>doesn't recall anyone speaking quite like BW, despite the rampant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-rhoticity. ? "Babra" si, "Babwa" no.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>LH
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ã˜Â¢ ------------------------------------------------------------
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