ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)

Fri Feb 27 19:00:32 UTC 2009

Sorry to disagree.  I hear "just" sometimes spoken as "jist" (~jist) with a short i in conversation.  But just yesterday I heard ~joost (short oo, ~oo as in "wood") by someone in TV media.  I don't think anyone would argue that the first pronunciation of "just" by m-w.com is usual.  It's a solid short u.  Why m-w.com uses a schwa there I'll never know.  Unfortunately, for all short u's they use \   \ as u in abut, (an upside down "e" that apparently won't copy paste) .  Very very unfortunate notation.  Everyone understands using a letter "u" for the "uh" sound.

> As to an example of a word with [i"], I have it regularly for the
> vowel in the unstressed suffix -ing. I have it in the third syllable
> of "dirigible".

Not so as I hear it.  Note that m-w.com calls the third "i" in dirigible a schwa, the same as short u.  I hear it spoken as short i.

from m-w.com   Main Entry:1di·ri·gi·ble
Pronunciation:\ˈdir-ə-jə-bəl, də-ˈri-jə-\
I hear the speaker say ~deerijibool and ~derrijibool.

I've never heard stress on the first syllable of dirigable before.  But the third "i" I hear as short i as in "it".  However, it is not the same as the first "i" in "linguistic" as spoken by m-w.com.  ~leengwwistik

I appears to me that m-w.com has been making many changes in its site.  One of them is to go back and repronounce "ing" "ink" with short i's.  This makes them sound very odd and not like real pronounciation.  I believe they've made speakers speak according to the phonetics and not according to real life.

In m-w.com the word "instinctive" sounds fine.  The word "instinct" with short i before n sounds wrong.  In real life the n becomes velar (top back of mouth instead of a normal front n) before the "k" sound, and the "i" becomes long e ~ee.

An "i" said as long e is very typical.  Take "lingua franca" which is spelled in m-w.com with short i ~i surely should be long e ~ee because its Italian.  The speaker says long e.  Also for "linguist" yet a short i is in the foespel.  Those short i sounds are in error for "ing", and I think m-w.com is forcing them to be said short i to agree with the foespel.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
see truespel.com

----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:46:09 -0500
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tom,
>
> You're not hearing "jist," which is a distinct word from "just."
> You're hearing it with a different vowel from lax high front. It's
> high central unrounded, and the IPA symbol is barred-i. /dZIst/
> "gist" and [dZi"st] "just (adv.)" are not the same word and don't have
> the same vowel.
>
> About "juiced," you wrote, "Curiously above has two pronunciations. Â
> The first is ~just. Â The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds
> like "juiced". Â I've never heard this in USA. Â Sounds like UK to
> me." I've never heard this pronunciation either, but I assume the
> lexicographers have evidence for it.
>
> As to an example of a word with [i"], I have it regularly for the
> vowel in the unstressed suffix -ing. I have it in the third syllable
> of "dirigible" and anywhere else in an unstressed syllable containing
> a palato-alveolar or a velar and a schwa. [i"] is not phonemic in
> English; it's a predictable variant, allophone if you wish, of schwa
> in this environment.
>
> Herb
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I hear "jist" for "just" all the time in fluent speech. I've never heard long u, to make "just" sound like "juiced".
>>
>> Got an example of a word with /i"/ in it?
>>
>> Schwa is not good because it represents so many sounds.
>>
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> see truespel.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:41:48 -0500
>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I checked both mw and ahd sites, and the only spoken pronunciation I
>>> found on either was /dZVst/. I heard no /dZIst/ and no /dZi"st/
>>> (where /i"/ is barred-i, a high central unrounded vowel). The /dZust/
>>> pronunciation on the mw site is specifically an archaic pronunciation
>>> of "joust," probably reflecting its pronunciation before the Great
>>> Vowel Shift. It's a different word. The problem with these
>>> dictionary pronunciations is that they are citation forms, not forms
>>> as used in sentences. That will inevitably change pronunciation. The
>>> adverbial form is frequently transcribed with a schwa /dZ at st/, which
>>> isn't a bad choice. Phonetically, that schwa gets raised to a
>>> barred-i /i"/ because of the palato-alveolar affricate before it, just
>>> as the unstressed vowel in the suffix -ing frequently comes out as a
>>> barred-i because of the velar nasal following it.
>>>
>>> Herb.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: Â Â Â American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Â Â Â Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Â Â Â Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The word "just" ~just (with short u) I hear often said ~jist (with short i) in certain phrases (just a minute)
>>>>
>>>> from m-w.com
>>>> Main Entry:1just
>>>> Pronunciation:\Ë jÉ st, Ë jÃ¼st\
>>>>
>>>> Curiously above has two pronunciations. Â The first is ~just. Â The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds like "juiced". Â I've never heard this in USA. Â Sounds like UK to me.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:40:34 -0500
>>>>> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> At 6:17 PM -0500 2/25/09, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>>>>>>I have a contrast between "just" meaning "fair" and the adverb "just"
>>>>>>as in "just a minute." The adjective has inverted lower case a, the
>>>>>>lower mid central vowel. The adverb has barred i.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Herb
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm. I agree about the barred-i for the adverb,
>>>>> but for me the adjective has something more like
>>>>> a wedge. Or maybe I've never actually considered
>>>>> what that upside-down print a is and whether or
>>>>> not it's part of my inventory; I see on the IPA
>>>>> chart that it's slightly less back than the wedge
>>>>> and slightly lower. I really have no idea;
>>>>> vowels are tough cookies.
>>>>>
>>>>> LH
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Paul A Johnston, Jr.
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the
>>>>>>>mail header -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: "Paul A Johnston, Jr."
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wilson,
>>>>>>> Yes, there is, and there are probably
>>>>>>>languages (most likely in Northern Asia) that
>>>>>>>contrast the two.
>>>>>>> To me, the unrounded /u/ has lower pitch, and
>>>>>>>sounds more "/u/-like" to someone who doesn't
>>>>>>> have one; the barred /i/ sounds more /i/ or
>>>>>>>/I/ like. Compare the Japanese u to the
>>>>>>>Russian sound
>>>>>>> written with what looks like a joined b and I.
>>>>>>>Many of us will have a lowered barred /i/ in
>>>>>>>things like
>>>>>>> rib, rip, and when unstressed in many words (I
>>>>>>>have it in the second syllable of things like
>>>>>>>chicken).
>>>>>>> Unrounded /u/ is sporadic at best in
>>>>>>>English--I've worked with dialects that usually
>>>>>>>have unrounded
>>>>>>> /o/ in CUP, and unrounded /u/ in this class
>>>>>>>occurs, but at very low frequency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul Johnston
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:15 pm
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------
>>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree, except for one minor quibble. Is there really an audible
>>>>>>>> distinction between an unrounded /u/ and a barred /i/? I willing to be
>>>>>>>> taken to school on this point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>>> Ã¢Â¤"Ã¢Â¤"Ã¢Â¤"
>>>>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>> Sender: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>> Poster: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009
>>>>>>>> (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At 11:36 AM -0500 2/25/09, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>FWIW, a friend of mine, a native of Worcester, pronounces the name
>>>>>>>>>>something like "Wistuh." I heard the same or, at least, a very
>>>>>>>> similar>>pronunciation, used here in Boston by a guy who said that
>>>>>>>> he had been
>>>>>>>>>>to - not "lived in" - "Wistuh." I'd expect a lower vowel than
>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>probably an unrounded /u/. Naturally, another possibility is that my
>>>>>>>>>>hearing simply isn't what it used to be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The *real* natives did front the stressed vowel more than suggested
>>>>>>>>> by my implied [U] below, but not really lowered to a wedge [^]
>>>>>>>>> either, I don't think. Ø¢ Maybe a stressed barred-i? Ø¢ Of course the
>>>>>>>>> unrounding is a bit tricky to extract because of the rounded /w/ it
>>>>>>>>> follows, but I think barred-i gets us pretty close: Ø¢ neither as
>>>>>>>> back> as in "wuss" nor as front as in "wistful".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>>>>> complaint to
>>>>>>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>>>>>-Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Amy West
>>>>>>>> wrote:>>> Ø¢ ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Sender: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ American Dialect Society>>>> L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> Ø¢ Poster: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ Amy West
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Subject: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ OK, now I'm understanding what Paul Johnston described as the
>>>>>>>> lip>>> Ø¢ /r/. (I don't have a good phonological background).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ I'm here in Worcester, though not a native. There is only one
>>>>>>>> kid in
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ my son's cohort who speaks like that, and it sounds funny to
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ of the cohort.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Woo State has a Communications Sciences and Disorders
>>>>>>>> department with
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ a clinic. If people are interested in investigating this as
>>>>>>>> an aspect
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ of a standard or nonstandard Worcester accent, perhaps we can
>>>>>>>> enlist>>> Ø¢ their aid in getting some hard data. Not just from the
>>>>>>>> clinic, which
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ would be biased, but having students do surveys, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Right now, my impression is that if it is not classified as a
>>>>>>>> "speech>>> Ø¢ impediment/defect" it is a nonstandard variant of the
>>>>>>>> local>>> Ø¢ accent/pronunciation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ ---Amy West
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ residing in Worcester almost 4 years
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ working here almost 8 years
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Date: ? Ø¢ ? Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:45:41 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>>>From: ? Ø¢ ? Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: ~ (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>At 9:58 AM -0600 2/23/09, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I am not a native of Massachusetts, but i lived north of
>>>>>>>> Boston for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>nine years from 9.5. I never heard anyone up in Essex county who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>sounded like Barbara Walters--and no one ever pronounced my
>>>>>>>> first name
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the way she is stereotyped as saying hers. (I remember people
>>>>>>>> in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>neck of the woods making fun of her!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barbara
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I just checked with my daughter, who recently endured...er, spent
>>>>>>>>>>>>four years as an undergraduate in Worcester (a.k.a. Wuhsta),
>>>>>>>> and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>doesn't recall anyone speaking quite like BW, despite the rampant
>>>>>>>>>>>>non-rhoticity. ? "Babra" si, "Babwa" no.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>LH
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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