ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)

Fri Feb 27 04:46:09 UTC 2009

Tom,

You're not hearing "jist," which is a distinct word from "just."
You're hearing it with a different vowel from lax high front.  It's
high central unrounded, and the IPA symbol is barred-i.  /dZIst/
"gist" and [dZi"st] "just (adv.)" are not the same word and don't have
the same vowel.

About "juiced," you wrote, "Curiously above has two pronunciations. ย
The first is ~just. ย The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds
like "juiced". ย I've never heard this in USA. ย Sounds like UK to
me."  I've never heard this pronunciation either, but I assume the
lexicographers have evidence for it.

As to an example of a word with [i"], I have it regularly for the
vowel in the unstressed suffix -ing.  I have it in the third syllable
of "dirigible" and anywhere else in an unstressed syllable containing
a palato-alveolar or a velar and a schwa.  [i"] is not phonemic in
English; it's a predictable variant, allophone if you wish, of schwa
in this environment.

Herb

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I hear "jist" for "just" all the time in fluent speech.  I've never heard long u, to make "just" sound like "juiced".
>
> Got an example of a word with /i"/ in it?
>
> Schwa is not good because it represents so many sounds.
>
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:41:48 -0500
>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I checked both mw and ahd sites, and the only spoken pronunciation I
>> found on either was /dZVst/. I heard no /dZIst/ and no /dZi"st/
>> (where /i"/ is barred-i, a high central unrounded vowel). The /dZust/
>> pronunciation on the mw site is specifically an archaic pronunciation
>> of "joust," probably reflecting its pronunciation before the Great
>> Vowel Shift. It's a different word. The problem with these
>> dictionary pronunciations is that they are citation forms, not forms
>> as used in sentences. That will inevitably change pronunciation. The
>> adverbial form is frequently transcribed with a schwa /dZ at st/, which
>> isn't a bad choice. Phonetically, that schwa gets raised to a
>> barred-i /i"/ because of the palato-alveolar affricate before it, just
>> as the unstressed vowel in the suffix -ing frequently comes out as a
>> barred-i because of the velar nasal following it.
>>
>> Herb.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: ย ย ย American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: ย ย ย Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: ย ย ย Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The word "just" ~just (with short u) I hear often said ~jist (with short i) in certain phrases (just a minute)
>>>
>>> from m-w.com
>>> Main Entry:1just
>>> Pronunciation:\ห jษ st, ห jรผst\
>>>
>>> Curiously above has two pronunciations. ย The first is ~just. ย The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds like "juiced". ย I've never heard this in USA. ย Sounds like UK to me.
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>> see truespel.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:40:34 -0500
>>>> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> At 6:17 PM -0500 2/25/09, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>>>>>I have a contrast between "just" meaning "fair" and the adverb "just"
>>>>>as in "just a minute." The adjective has inverted lower case a, the
>>>>>lower mid central vowel. The adverb has barred i.
>>>>>
>>>>>Herb
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm. I agree about the barred-i for the adverb,
>>>> but for me the adjective has something more like
>>>> a wedge. Or maybe I've never actually considered
>>>> what that upside-down print a is and whether or
>>>> not it's part of my inventory; I see on the IPA
>>>> chart that it's slightly less back than the wedge
>>>> and slightly lower. I really have no idea;
>>>> vowels are tough cookies.
>>>>
>>>> LH
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Paul A Johnston, Jr.
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the
>>>>>>mail header -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: "Paul A Johnston, Jr."
>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wilson,
>>>>>> Yes, there is, and there are probably
>>>>>>languages (most likely in Northern Asia) that
>>>>>>contrast the two.
>>>>>> To me, the unrounded /u/ has lower pitch, and
>>>>>>sounds more "/u/-like" to someone who doesn't
>>>>>> have one; the barred /i/ sounds more /i/ or
>>>>>>/I/ like. Compare the Japanese u to the
>>>>>>Russian sound
>>>>>> written with what looks like a joined b and I.
>>>>>>Many of us will have a lowered barred /i/ in
>>>>>>things like
>>>>>> rib, rip, and when unstressed in many words (I
>>>>>>have it in the second syllable of things like
>>>>>>chicken).
>>>>>> Unrounded /u/ is sporadic at best in
>>>>>>English--I've worked with dialects that usually
>>>>>>have unrounded
>>>>>> /o/ in CUP, and unrounded /u/ in this class
>>>>>>occurs, but at very low frequency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Johnston
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Wilson Gray
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:15 pm
>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------
>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree, except for one minor quibble. Is there really an audible
>>>>>>> distinction between an unrounded /u/ and a barred /i/? I willing to be
>>>>>>> taken to school on this point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>> รขยค"รขยค"รขยค"
>>>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Laurence Horn
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: ุข ุข ุข American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: ุข ุข ุข Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>> Subject: ุข ุข ุข Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009
>>>>>>> (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At 11:36 AM -0500 2/25/09, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>>FWIW, a friend of mine, a native of Worcester, pronounces the name
>>>>>>>>>something like "Wistuh." I heard the same or, at least, a very
>>>>>>> similar>>pronunciation, used here in Boston by a guy who said that
>>>>>>> he had been
>>>>>>>>>to - not "lived in" - "Wistuh." I'd expect a lower vowel than
>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>probably an unrounded /u/. Naturally, another possibility is that my
>>>>>>>>>hearing simply isn't what it used to be.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The *real* natives did front the stressed vowel more than suggested
>>>>>>>> by my implied [U] below, but not really lowered to a wedge [^]
>>>>>>>> either, I don't think. ุข Maybe a stressed barred-i? ุข Of course the
>>>>>>>> unrounding is a bit tricky to extract because of the rounded /w/ it
>>>>>>>> follows, but I think barred-i gets us pretty close: ุข neither as
>>>>>>> back> as in "wuss" nor as front as in "wistful".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>>>> complaint to
>>>>>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>>>>-Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Amy West
>>>>>>> wrote:>>> ุข ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>>>>>> ุข Sender: ? ุข ? ุข ? ุข American Dialect Society>>>> L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> ุข Poster: ? ุข ? ุข ? ุข Amy West
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ุข Subject: ? ุข ? ุข ? Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb
>>>>>>> 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ุข OK, now I'm understanding what Paul Johnston described as the
>>>>>>> lip>>> ุข /r/. (I don't have a good phonological background).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ุข I'm here in Worcester, though not a native. There is only one
>>>>>>> kid in
>>>>>>>>>> ุข my son's cohort who speaks like that, and it sounds funny to
>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>>> ุข of the cohort.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ุข Woo State has a Communications Sciences and Disorders
>>>>>>> department with
>>>>>>>>>> ุข a clinic. If people are interested in investigating this as
>>>>>>> an aspect
>>>>>>>>>> ุข of a standard or nonstandard Worcester accent, perhaps we can
>>>>>>> enlist>>> ุข their aid in getting some hard data. Not just from the
>>>>>>> clinic, which
>>>>>>>>>> ุข would be biased, but having students do surveys, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ุข Right now, my impression is that if it is not classified as a
>>>>>>> "speech>>> ุข impediment/defect" it is a nonstandard variant of the
>>>>>>> local>>> ุข accent/pronunciation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ุข ---Amy West
>>>>>>>>>> ุข residing in Worcester almost 4 years
>>>>>>>>>> ุข working here almost 8 years
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Date: ? ุข ? Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:45:41 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>>From: ? ุข ? Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: ~ (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>At 9:58 AM -0600 2/23/09, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>I am not a native of Massachusetts, but i lived north of
>>>>>>> Boston for
>>>>>>>>>>>>nine years from 9.5. I never heard anyone up in Essex county who
>>>>>>>>>>>>sounded like Barbara Walters--and no one ever pronounced my
>>>>>>> first name
>>>>>>>>>>>>the way she is stereotyped as saying hers. (I remember people
>>>>>>> in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>neck of the woods making fun of her!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Barbara
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I just checked with my daughter, who recently endured...er, spent
>>>>>>>>>>>four years as an undergraduate in Worcester (a.k.a. Wuhsta),
>>>>>>> and she
>>>>>>>>>>>doesn't recall anyone speaking quite like BW, despite the rampant
>>>>>>>>>>>non-rhoticity. ? "Babra" si, "Babwa" no.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>LH
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ุข ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>>>
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