ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)

Fri Feb 27 03:56:10 UTC 2009

I hear "jist" for "just" all the time in fluent speech.  I've never heard long u, to make "just" sound like "juiced".

Got an example of a word with /i"/ in it?

Schwa is not good because it represents so many sounds.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
see truespel.com

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> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:41:48 -0500
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I checked both mw and ahd sites, and the only spoken pronunciation I
> found on either was /dZVst/. I heard no /dZIst/ and no /dZi"st/
> (where /i"/ is barred-i, a high central unrounded vowel). The /dZust/
> pronunciation on the mw site is specifically an archaic pronunciation
> of "joust," probably reflecting its pronunciation before the Great
> Vowel Shift. It's a different word. The problem with these
> dictionary pronunciations is that they are citation forms, not forms
> as used in sentences. That will inevitably change pronunciation. The
> adverbial form is frequently transcribed with a schwa /dZ at st/, which
> isn't a bad choice. Phonetically, that schwa gets raised to a
> barred-i /i"/ because of the palato-alveolar affricate before it, just
> as the unstressed vowel in the suffix -ing frequently comes out as a
> barred-i because of the velar nasal following it.
>
> Herb.
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: Â Â Â American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Â Â Â Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Â Â Â Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The word "just" ~just (with short u) I hear often said ~jist (with short i) in certain phrases (just a minute)
>>
>> from m-w.com
>> Main Entry:1just
>> Pronunciation:\ËˆjÉ™st, ËˆjÃ¼st\
>>
>> Curiously above has two pronunciations. Â The first is ~just. Â The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds like "juiced". Â I've never heard this in USA. Â Sounds like UK to me.
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> see truespel.com
>>
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>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:40:34 -0500
>>> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> At 6:17 PM -0500 2/25/09, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>>>>I have a contrast between "just" meaning "fair" and the adverb "just"
>>>>as in "just a minute." The adjective has inverted lower case a, the
>>>>lower mid central vowel. The adverb has barred i.
>>>>
>>>>Herb
>>>
>>> Hmmm. I agree about the barred-i for the adverb,
>>> but for me the adjective has something more like
>>> a wedge. Or maybe I've never actually considered
>>> what that upside-down print a is and whether or
>>> not it's part of my inventory; I see on the IPA
>>> chart that it's slightly less back than the wedge
>>> and slightly lower. I really have no idea;
>>> vowels are tough cookies.
>>>
>>> LH
>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Paul A Johnston, Jr.
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the
>>>>>mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: "Paul A Johnston, Jr."
>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>
>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Wilson,
>>>>> Yes, there is, and there are probably
>>>>>languages (most likely in Northern Asia) that
>>>>>contrast the two.
>>>>> To me, the unrounded /u/ has lower pitch, and
>>>>>sounds more "/u/-like" to someone who doesn't
>>>>> have one; the barred /i/ sounds more /i/ or
>>>>>/I/ like. Compare the Japanese u to the
>>>>>Russian sound
>>>>> written with what looks like a joined b and I.
>>>>>Many of us will have a lowered barred /i/ in
>>>>>things like
>>>>> rib, rip, and when unstressed in many words (I
>>>>>have it in the second syllable of things like
>>>>>chicken).
>>>>> Unrounded /u/ is sporadic at best in
>>>>>English--I've worked with dialects that usually
>>>>>have unrounded
>>>>> /o/ in CUP, and unrounded /u/ in this class
>>>>>occurs, but at very low frequency.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Johnston
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Wilson Gray
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:15 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------
>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree, except for one minor quibble. Is there really an audible
>>>>>> distinction between an unrounded /u/ and a barred /i/? I willing to be
>>>>>> taken to school on this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>> Ã¢Â¤"Ã¢Â¤"Ã¢Â¤"
>>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Laurence Horn
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>> Sender: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ Laurence Horn
>>>>>>> Subject: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009
>>>>>> (#2009-55)
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 11:36 AM -0500 2/25/09, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>FWIW, a friend of mine, a native of Worcester, pronounces the name
>>>>>>>>something like "Wistuh." I heard the same or, at least, a very
>>>>>> similar>>pronunciation, used here in Boston by a guy who said that
>>>>>> he had been
>>>>>>>>to - not "lived in" - "Wistuh." I'd expect a lower vowel than
>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>probably an unrounded /u/. Naturally, another possibility is that my
>>>>>>>>hearing simply isn't what it used to be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The *real* natives did front the stressed vowel more than suggested
>>>>>>> by my implied [U] below, but not really lowered to a wedge [^]
>>>>>>> either, I don't think. Ø¢ Maybe a stressed barred-i? Ø¢ Of course the
>>>>>>> unrounding is a bit tricky to extract because of the rounded /w/ it
>>>>>>> follows, but I think barred-i gets us pretty close: Ø¢ neither as
>>>>>> back> as in "wuss" nor as front as in "wistful".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>>> complaint to
>>>>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>>>-Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Amy West
>>>>>> wrote:>>> Ø¢ ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Sender: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ American Dialect Society>>>> L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> Ø¢ Poster: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ Amy West
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Subject: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb
>>>>>> 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ OK, now I'm understanding what Paul Johnston described as the
>>>>>> lip>>> Ø¢ /r/. (I don't have a good phonological background).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ I'm here in Worcester, though not a native. There is only one
>>>>>> kid in
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ my son's cohort who speaks like that, and it sounds funny to
>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ of the cohort.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Woo State has a Communications Sciences and Disorders
>>>>>> department with
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ a clinic. If people are interested in investigating this as
>>>>>> an aspect
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ of a standard or nonstandard Worcester accent, perhaps we can
>>>>>> enlist>>> Ø¢ their aid in getting some hard data. Not just from the
>>>>>> clinic, which
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ would be biased, but having students do surveys, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Right now, my impression is that if it is not classified as a
>>>>>> "speech>>> Ø¢ impediment/defect" it is a nonstandard variant of the
>>>>>> local>>> Ø¢ accent/pronunciation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ ---Amy West
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ residing in Worcester almost 4 years
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ working here almost 8 years
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Date: ? Ø¢ ? Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:45:41 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>From: ? Ø¢ ? Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: ~ (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>At 9:58 AM -0600 2/23/09, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>I am not a native of Massachusetts, but i lived north of
>>>>>> Boston for
>>>>>>>>>>>nine years from 9.5. I never heard anyone up in Essex county who
>>>>>>>>>>>sounded like Barbara Walters--and no one ever pronounced my
>>>>>> first name
>>>>>>>>>>>the way she is stereotyped as saying hers. (I remember people
>>>>>> in my
>>>>>>>>>>>neck of the woods making fun of her!)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Barbara
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I just checked with my daughter, who recently endured...er, spent
>>>>>>>>>>four years as an undergraduate in Worcester (a.k.a. Wuhsta),
>>>>>> and she
>>>>>>>>>>doesn't recall anyone speaking quite like BW, despite the rampant
>>>>>>>>>>non-rhoticity. ? "Babra" si, "Babwa" no.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>LH
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Ø¢ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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