ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)

Thu Feb 26 18:41:48 UTC 2009

I checked both mw and ahd sites, and the only spoken pronunciation I
found on either was /dZVst/.  I heard no /dZIst/ and no /dZi"st/
(where /i"/ is barred-i, a high central unrounded vowel).  The /dZust/
pronunciation on the mw site is specifically an archaic pronunciation
of "joust," probably reflecting its pronunciation before the Great
Vowel Shift.  It's a different word.  The problem with these
dictionary pronunciations is that they are citation forms, not forms
as used in sentences.  That will inevitably change pronunciation.  The
adverbial form is frequently transcribed with a schwa /dZ at st/, which
isn't a bad choice.  Phonetically, that schwa gets raised to a
barred-i /i"/ because of the palato-alveolar affricate before it, just
as the unstressed vowel in the suffix -ing frequently comes out as a
barred-i because of the velar nasal following it.

Herb.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Â  Â  Â  Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The word "just" ~just (with short u) I hear often said ~jist (with short i) in certain phrases (just a minute)
>
> from m-w.com
> Main Entry:1just
> Pronunciation:\ËˆjÉ™st, ËˆjÃ¼st\
>
> Curiously above has two pronunciations. Â The first is ~just. Â The second is with a long u ~juest and sounds like "juiced". Â I've never heard this in USA. Â Sounds like UK to me.
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
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> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:40:34 -0500
>> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> At 6:17 PM -0500 2/25/09, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>>>I have a contrast between "just" meaning "fair" and the adverb "just"
>>>as in "just a minute." The adjective has inverted lower case a, the
>>>lower mid central vowel. The adverb has barred i.
>>>
>>>Herb
>>
>> Hmmm. I agree about the barred-i for the adverb,
>> but for me the adjective has something more like
>> a wedge. Or maybe I've never actually considered
>> what that upside-down print a is and whether or
>> not it's part of my inventory; I see on the IPA
>> chart that it's slightly less back than the wedge
>> and slightly lower. I really have no idea;
>> vowels are tough cookies.
>>
>> LH
>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Paul A Johnston, Jr.
>>> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the
>>>>mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: "Paul A Johnston, Jr."
>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Wilson,
>>>> Yes, there is, and there are probably
>>>>languages (most likely in Northern Asia) that
>>>>contrast the two.
>>>> To me, the unrounded /u/ has lower pitch, and
>>>>sounds more "/u/-like" to someone who doesn't
>>>> have one; the barred /i/ sounds more /i/ or
>>>>/I/ like. Compare the Japanese u to the
>>>>Russian sound
>>>> written with what looks like a joined b and I.
>>>>Many of us will have a lowered barred /i/ in
>>>>things like
>>>> rib, rip, and when unstressed in many words (I
>>>>have it in the second syllable of things like
>>>>chicken).
>>>> Unrounded /u/ is sporadic at best in
>>>>English--I've worked with dialects that usually
>>>>have unrounded
>>>> /o/ in CUP, and unrounded /u/ in this class
>>>>occurs, but at very low frequency.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Johnston
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Wilson Gray
>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:15 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------
>>>>> -----------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>> Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, except for one minor quibble. Is there really an audible
>>>>> distinction between an unrounded /u/ and a barred /i/? I willing to be
>>>>> taken to school on this point.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>> Ã¢Â¤"Ã¢Â¤"Ã¢Â¤"
>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>> -----
>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Laurence Horn
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
>>>>> -------------
>>>>>> Sender: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ Laurence Horn
>>>>>> Subject: Ø¢ Ø¢ Ø¢ Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb 2009
>>>>> (#2009-55)
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 11:36 AM -0500 2/25/09, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>FWIW, a friend of mine, a native of Worcester, pronounces the name
>>>>>>>something like "Wistuh." I heard the same or, at least, a very
>>>>> similar>>pronunciation, used here in Boston by a guy who said that
>>>>> he had been
>>>>>>>to - not "lived in" - "Wistuh." I'd expect a lower vowel than
>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>probably an unrounded /u/. Naturally, another possibility is that my
>>>>>>>hearing simply isn't what it used to be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The *real* natives did front the stressed vowel more than suggested
>>>>>> by my implied [U] below, but not really lowered to a wedge [^]
>>>>>> either, I don't think. Ø¢ Maybe a stressed barred-i? Ø¢ Of course the
>>>>>> unrounding is a bit tricky to extract because of the rounded /w/ it
>>>>>> follows, but I think barred-i gets us pretty close: Ø¢ neither as
>>>>> back> as in "wuss" nor as front as in "wistful".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>> complaint to
>>>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>>-Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Amy West
>>>>> wrote:>>> Ø¢ ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Sender: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ American Dialect Society>>>> L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> Ø¢ Poster: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ Amy West
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Subject: ? Ø¢ ? Ø¢ ? Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 2009 to 23 Feb
>>>>> 2009 (#2009-55)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ OK, now I'm understanding what Paul Johnston described as the
>>>>> lip>>> Ø¢ /r/. (I don't have a good phonological background).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ I'm here in Worcester, though not a native. There is only one
>>>>> kid in
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ my son's cohort who speaks like that, and it sounds funny to
>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ of the cohort.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Woo State has a Communications Sciences and Disorders
>>>>> department with
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ a clinic. If people are interested in investigating this as
>>>>> an aspect
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ of a standard or nonstandard Worcester accent, perhaps we can
>>>>> enlist>>> Ø¢ their aid in getting some hard data. Not just from the
>>>>> clinic, which
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ would be biased, but having students do surveys, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ Right now, my impression is that if it is not classified as a
>>>>> "speech>>> Ø¢ impediment/defect" it is a nonstandard variant of the
>>>>> local>>> Ø¢ accent/pronunciation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ ---Amy West
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ residing in Worcester almost 4 years
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ working here almost 8 years
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Date: ? Ø¢ ? Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:45:41 -0500
>>>>>>>>>From: ? Ø¢ ? Laurence Horn
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: ~ (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>At 9:58 AM -0600 2/23/09, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>I am not a native of Massachusetts, but i lived north of
>>>>> Boston for
>>>>>>>>>>nine years from 9.5. I never heard anyone up in Essex county who
>>>>>>>>>>sounded like Barbara Walters--and no one ever pronounced my
>>>>> first name
>>>>>>>>>>the way she is stereotyped as saying hers. (I remember people
>>>>> in my
>>>>>>>>>>neck of the woods making fun of her!)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Barbara
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I just checked with my daughter, who recently endured...er, spent
>>>>>>>>>four years as an undergraduate in Worcester (a.k.a. Wuhsta),
>>>>> and she
>>>>>>>>>doesn't recall anyone speaking quite like BW, despite the rampant
>>>>>>>>>non-rhoticity. ? "Babra" si, "Babwa" no.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>LH
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ø¢ ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>
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