"Big Apple" revisited: Alain Locke's supposed 1919 Harlem/big apple quote (UNCLASSIFIED)

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Wed Jun 3 22:19:46 UTC 2009 

Yes, Bill.  But it wasn't easy.
>From what I could see, there is an underwhelming number of "Big Apple" exx.
before the popularity of the dance, and next to nothing (or less) referring
to NYC in general before the '60s or even '70s.

JL


On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC <
Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: "Big Apple" revisited: Alain Locke's supposed 1919
> Harlem/big
>              apple quote (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
> Did you find this on the Fulton Postcards website?  I must have missed
> it . . .
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:37 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  > Subject: Re: "Big Apple" revisited: Alain Locke's supposed 1919
> > Harlem/big apple quote (UNCLASSIFIED)
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> ---------------
> > --------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: "Big Apple" revisited: Alain Locke's supposed 1919
> > Harlem/big
> >               apple quote (UNCLASSIFIED)
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > A year earlier in that same sense of "Broadway variety theaters" - and
> > from
> > the same columnist (or at least column):
> >
> > 1926 _Poughkeepsie Eagle_ (Nov. 16) 6:  The Daybook of a New
> > Yorker....[H]e
> > got some billings in Oklahoma and now he is "Getting his bite of the
> > Big
> > Apple," as the [?vaudevil]ians say when they are p[?laying] Broadway.
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC <
> > Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> > > Subject:      Re: "Big Apple" revisited:  Alain Locke's supposed
> 1919
> > >              Harlem/big              apple quote (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > >
> > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > >
> > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> > > Caveats: NONE
> > >
> > > Can't help with Gerry's specific request, but here is an early "Big
> > > Apple" cite that I don't find on Barry Popik's website.
> > >
> > >
> > > _Poughkeepsie Eagle News_ Jan 8 1927 p. 6
> > > "The Daybook of a New Yorker"
> > > "New York, Jan. 7 -- Mayor Jimmy Walker is a slim little fellow,
> > quick
> > > and nervous in his movements like a vaudeville hoofer on the first
> > night
> > > of his first bite out of the Big Apple."
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> > > > Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:54 PM
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > Subject: "Big Apple" revisited: Alain Locke's supposed 1919
> > Harlem/big
> > > > apple quote
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > ---------------
> > > > --------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at MST.EDU>
> > > > Subject:      "Big Apple" revisited:  Alain Locke's supposed 1919
> > > > Harlem/big
> > > >               apple quote
> > > >
> > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > > --------
> > > >
> > > > This is a follow-up and a request for assistance.
> > > >
> > > >     Barry Popik and I have been checking the statement as reported
> > in
> > > > the 1/17/2007 Wall Street Journal that A. Locke said in 1919:
> > "Harlem
> > > > is the precious fruit of the Garden of Eden, the big apple." The
> > > > statement reportedly appears on a map of the Harlem Renaissance in
> > the
> > > > possession of Marc H. Miller (Founder and Director of Ephemera
> > Press),
> > > > but no source was cited.
> > > >
> > > >     I don't find the quote entered in Google books, and in some
> > twenty
> > > > years of research on the origin of "The Big Apple" neither Barry
> > nor I
> > > > have come across mention of it other than in the 2007 WSJ article.
> > > > Marc Miller recently responded to a query of mine about this, but
> > the
> > > > source still remains unknown (a book of quotations in the B'klyn
> > > Public
> > > > Library--title not given--and the book of quotations did not cite
> > the
> > > > source of A. Locke's supposed 1919 "big apple" quote).
> > > >
> > > >      Barry's website (barrypopik.com)  comments: "I have spent
> many
> > > > hours reading the Amsterdam News and New York Age, and looking at
> > all
> > > > of Locke's and [Fletcher] Henderson's works. "Big Apple" is not
> > there
> > > > before the 1930s."
> > > >
> > > >     The interpretation seems clear.  Unless a source can be
> located
> > > for
> > > > A. Locke's 1919 quotation, it should be regarded as non-existent.
> > > But,
> > > > if by chance, someone can locate the quote, I'd very much
> > appreciate
> > > > hearing of it. Full credit would be given in the "Big Apple" book
> > that
> > > > Barry and I are presently preparing (2nd, revised, edition of my
> > 1991
> > > > monograph on the origin of the sobriquet).
> > > >
> > > >     Btw, below my signoff is the response I've just received (June
> > 1)
> > > > from Marc Miller on the A. Locke quotation.
> > > >
> > > > Gerald Cohen
> > > >
> > > > [reply on A. Locke's supposed 1919 "Harlem is...the big apple"
> > > > quotation]:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Gerald Cohen,
> > > >
> > > > My knowledge about this quotation has not changed since I last
> > > answered
> > > > your
> > > > query.  I found it in a book compiling well-known quotations in
> the
> > > > main
> > > > branch of the Brooklyn Public Library.    I was seeking an
> > appropriate
> > > > quotation about Harlem.  Unfortunately I do not have a record of
> > the
> > > > title
> > > > of the book.  If the book had listed a source for the quotation
> > along
> > > > with
> > > > the date, I would have written it down.   Knowing a bit about
> > Locke, I
> > > > can
> > > > say it is not uncommon for him to use the word "fruit" or to make
> > > > biblical
> > > > allusions   I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the
> > quote.
> > > > It is
> > > > possible that the book of quotations was mistaken about the date.
> > > > Locke
> > > > lived until 1954.  Good luck with your book.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Marc H. Miller. Ph.D.
> > > >
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> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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