velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)

Thu Jun 11 11:57:38 UTC 2009

Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > At 2:32 AM +0000 6/10/09, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >Thank you Laurence for that. Herb would say
> >those sounds are uvular and that there are no
> >velar flaps, trills or frics at all in any
> >language.
> 
> Herb said no such thing, actually.

On the contrary, I think he did.  See post below.

> >> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> >> >>
> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> Tom,
> >> >>
> >> >> You misunderstand. The IPA .....lacks a symbol
> >> >> for velar trill for the very good reason that no velar trill has been
> >> >> reported in human language. The most thorough treatment of the sounds
> >> >> of language, the phonetic database at the UCLA Phonetics Lab, does not
> >> >> report such a sound, not because humans can't learn to produce it, as
> >> >> Mark has demostrated, but because human languages have so far not made
> >> >> use of it. The IPA is, among other things, a representation of the
> >> >> sounds human languages actually use.

What's the deal?  Are there no velar trills,taps,flaps,frics in "human" language or what?

Tell me this.  Is the "k" ~k sound described as being made with the velum?

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ 
see truespel.com

 > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:51:08 -0400
> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> 
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> At 2:32 AM +0000 6/10/09, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >Thank you Laurence for that. Herb would say
> >those sounds are uvular and that there are no
> >velar flaps, trills or frics at all in any
> >language.
> 
> Herb said no such thing, actually.
> 
> > I disagree. I was going to mention German,
> >Hebrew, and even French. These sounds as I try
> >to make them are velar.
> 
> French and German have uvular [r]s. German also
> has a voiceless velar fricative [x]. The two are
> distinct in place of articulation as well as
> voicing.
> 
> >I can't do anything with the uvula but gargle.
> >
> >
> 
> Don't try speaking French or German then.
> 
> >
> >I'm glad the velar flap/trill/fric is written with an "x" in IPA.
> 
> Fricative.
> 
> >It is as well in truespel. I wouldn't think it
> >possible to have a voiced velar f/t/f, but there
> >are over 6k languages out there so you never
> >know.
> 
> The IPA uses a Greek gamma to represent the
> voiced counterpart of [x]. Not particularly
> exotic either, and again nobody on the list has
> denied this. The earlier discussion concerned
> velar flaps and trills, not simple velar
> fricatives.
> 
> LH
> 
> >
> >
> >It's just so hard to believe that /r/ in IPA is
> >a flapper (Spanish r) and not an English r.
> >With 2B folks learning English as a second
> >language, it's time to Englishify phonetics.
> >That's what truespel is all about.
> >
> >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >see truespel.com
> >
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the
> >>mail header -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> At 9:05 PM +0000 6/9/09, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >> >It does not seem like the uvula that is flapping
> >> >or being made contact with by the tongue, its
> >> >the soft tissue of the velum. The uvula is too
> >> >big and floppy and too far back. I can trill my
> >> >uvula and get a big gurgling sound. Not quite
> >> >right. There are velar flaps, trills or
> >> >fricatives in many languages.
> >> >
> >>
> >> There are indeed velar fricatives in many
> >> languages (German, Yiddish, Russian, Scots
> >> English for starters). That's the standard [x]
> >> of the IPA notation (assuming you're referring to
> >> voiceless ones).
> >>
> >> LH
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the
> >> >>mail header -----------------------
> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> >> >>
> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> Tom,
> >> >>
> >> >> You misunderstand. The IPA does have symbols for alveolar trill
> >> >> (lower case r), alveolar tap (or flap if you prefer)(lower case r
> >> >> without ascender), uvular trill (small cap R), and even bilabial trill
> >> >> (small cap B). The American English /r/, by the way, a retroflexed
> >> >> central approximant, is an inverted lower case r. It lacks a symbol
> >> >> for velar trill for the very good reason that no velar trill has been
> >> >> reported in human language. The most thorough treatment of the sounds
> >> >> of language, the phonetic database at the UCLA Phonetics Lab, does not
> >> >> report such a sound, not because humans can't learn to produce it, as
> >> >> Mark has demostrated, but because human languages have so far not made
> >> >> use of it. The IPA is, among other things, a representation of the
> >> >> sounds human languages actually use.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ease of articulation is one factor in language change, but it's far
> >> >> from the only one. If loss and development of sounds were simply a
> >> >> matter of ease of articulation, then we would have no explanation for
> >> >> the fact that languages not only lose but also develop some fairly
> >> >> difficult sounds, difficult in the sense that they are learned later
> >> >> than other sounds as children acquire the language as a native
> >> >> language.
> > > >>
> >> >> Herb
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Tom
> >>Zurinskas<truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the
> >> >>mail header -----------------------
> > > >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >> >> > Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> >> >> >
> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If the iPA does not recognize these velar
> >> >>trills or alveolar trills (Spanish r) it is
> >> >>sorely lacking. They are real. They are the
> >> >>most often made sounds outside of the English
> >> >>foenubet (set of sounds) ref truespel book one.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'd say that all sounds are not equal in
> >> >>difficulty. The harder ones have been dropped
> >> >>from USA English, like the trilled r (which you
> >> >>can still hear in Edison recordings, eg the
> >> >>word great with a multi-trilled r ~grqaet). The
> >> >>most difficult sounds would seem to be those
> >> >>showing droppings, like ~th, ~t, ~h, ~r, ~au
> >> >>(awe), ~l (widow wed wabbit). There would
> >> >>appear to be more mouth-work in saying them, so
> >> >>folks might want to work around them.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >> >> > see truespel.com
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----------------------------------------
> >> >> >> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:06:03 -0400
> >> >> >> From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> >> >> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the
> >> >>mail header -----------------------
> >> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> >> >> Poster: Mark Mandel
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> >> >> >>
> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Herb:
> >> >> >>> There is no IPA symbol for the sound. Â Apparently IPA covers only
> >> >> >>> terrestrial languages.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Randy:
> >> > > >>> Yes, for that you'd have to use the
> >>EPA (Extraterrestrial Paraphonetic
> >> >> >>> Alphabet), now under construction. Â It uses a quantum matrix of
> >> >> >>> decillions of symbolic representations of a wide variety of codable
> >> >> >>> media. Â A notable example is chemolfactory character set:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread281472/pg1
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> " I'm imagining non-auditory languages. For example, one in which
> >> >> >>> creatures emit chemicals and they smell
> >> >>each other. Imagine hundreds of thousands of
> >> >>chemical building blocks in a language. Very
> >> >>smelly."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I used to say with assurance that no human language would use this
> >> >> >> phone (which I write phonetically as k with a tilde), at least
> >> >> >> lexically, because the physical effort was too great. But as it came
> >> >> >> with practice, I realized that that could be simply the same
> >> >> >> lectocentrism that brands velar and uvular trills, clicks, front
> >> >> >> rounded vowels, and any other phone that's not in own language as
> >> >> >> "hard".
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> There are attested (in sf) olfactory languages. The citation I'm
> >> >> >> thinking of, though I can't recall the title or author, is at least 45
> >> >> >> years old and features two humans and an alien who is "cabin boy" of
> >> >> >> his ship. Since his actual name is literally unprintable, the author
> >> >> >> nicknames him "Tommy Loy", and ends the story with a very shaggy
> >> >> >> allusion.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Klingon, however, was developedXXXXXXXX documented by a human
> >> >> >> linguist, Dr. Marc Okrand, and is representable in IPA.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> m a m
> >> >> >>
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