velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)

Thu Jun 11 12:13:08 UTC 2009

Tom,

There is apparently some sound that you are calling a "velar trill."
I don't know what this sound might be because you have not provided an
adequate articulatory description of it, and an informal,
impressionistic, non-technical description won't do the job.  When you
put the words "velar" and "trill" together, both of which have clear
definitions in phonetics, you are naming something that is unattested
in human languages.

As to whether [k] is pronounced at the velum, every phonetics or basic
linguistics text will tell you that, as will the IPA.  This is not an
impressionistic conclusion.  There is clear x-ray and palatography
evidence of it.

Herb

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Tom Zurinskas<truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> =20
>
> =20
>
> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
>  > At 2:32 AM +0000 6/10/09=2C Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> >Thank you Laurence for that. Herb would say
>> >those sounds are uvular and that there are no
>> >velar flaps=2C trills or frics at all in any
>> >language.
>>=20
>> Herb said no such thing=2C actually.
>
> =20
>
> =20
>
> On the contrary=2C I think he did.  See post below.
>
>
>> >> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tom=2C
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You misunderstand. The IPA .....lacks a symbol
>> >> >> for velar trill for the very good reason that no velar trill has be=
> en
>> >> >> reported in human language. The most thorough treatment of the soun=
> ds
>> >> >> of language=2C the phonetic database at the UCLA Phonetics Lab=2C d=
> oes not
>> >> >> report such a sound=2C not because humans can't learn to produce it=
> =2C as
>> >> >> Mark has demostrated=2C but because human languages have so far not=
>  made
>> >> >> use of it. The IPA is=2C among other things=2C a representation of =
> the
>> >> >> sounds human languages actually use.
>
>
> What's the deal?  Are there no velar trills=2Ctaps=2Cflaps=2Cfrics in "huma=
> n" language or what?
>
> =20
>
> Tell me this.  Is the "k" ~k sound described as being made with the velum?
>
> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
> see truespel.com
>
>
>  > Date: Tue=2C 9 Jun 2009 22:51:08 -0400
>> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
>> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>=20
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------=
> ------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
>>=20
>> At 2:32 AM +0000 6/10/09=2C Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> >Thank you Laurence for that. Herb would say
>> >those sounds are uvular and that there are no
>> >velar flaps=2C trills or frics at all in any
>> >language.
>>=20
>> Herb said no such thing=2C actually.
>>=20
>> > I disagree. I was going to mention German=2C
>> >Hebrew=2C and even French. These sounds as I try
>> >to make them are velar.
>>=20
>> French and German have uvular [r]s. German also
>> has a voiceless velar fricative [x]. The two are
>> distinct in place of articulation as well as
>> voicing.
>>=20
>> >I can't do anything with the uvula but gargle.
>> >
>> >
>>=20
>> Don't try speaking French or German then.
>>=20
>> >
>> >I'm glad the velar flap/trill/fric is written with an "x" in IPA.
>>=20
>> Fricative.
>>=20
>> >It is as well in truespel. I wouldn't think it
>> >possible to have a voiced velar f/t/f=2C but there
>> >are over 6k languages out there so you never
>> >know.
>>=20
>> The IPA uses a Greek gamma to represent the
>> voiced counterpart of [x]. Not particularly
>> exotic either=2C and again nobody on the list has
>> denied this. The earlier discussion concerned
>> velar flaps and trills=2C not simple velar
>> fricatives.
>>=20
>> LH
>>=20
>> >
>> >
>> >It's just so hard to believe that /r/ in IPA is
>> >a flapper (Spanish r) and not an English r.
>> >With 2B folks learning English as a second
>> >language=2C it's time to Englishify phonetics.
>> >That's what truespel is all about.
>> >
>> >Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+
>> >see truespel.com
>> >
>> >
>> >> ---------------------- Information from the
>> >>mail header -----------------------
>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> >>
>> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------
>> >>
>> >> At 9:05 PM +0000 6/9/09=2C Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> >> >It does not seem like the uvula that is flapping
>> >> >or being made contact with by the tongue=2C its
>> >> >the soft tissue of the velum. The uvula is too
>> >> >big and floppy and too far back. I can trill my
>> >> >uvula and get a big gurgling sound. Not quite
>> >> >right. There are velar flaps=2C trills or
>> >> >fricatives in many languages.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> There are indeed velar fricatives in many
>> >> languages (German=2C Yiddish=2C Russian=2C Scots
>> >> English for starters). That's the standard [x]
>> >> of the IPA notation (assuming you're referring to
>> >> voiceless ones).
>> >>
>> >> LH
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the
>> >> >>mail header -----------------------
>> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tom=2C
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You misunderstand. The IPA does have symbols for alveolar trill
>> >> >> (lower case r)=2C alveolar tap (or flap if you prefer)(lower case r
>> >> >> without ascender)=2C uvular trill (small cap R)=2C and even bilabia=
> l trill
>> >> >> (small cap B). The American English /r/=2C by the way=2C a retrofle=
> xed
>> >> >> central approximant=2C is an inverted lower case r. It lacks a symb=
> ol
>> >> >> for velar trill for the very good reason that no velar trill has be=
> en
>> >> >> reported in human language. The most thorough treatment of the soun=
> ds
>> >> >> of language=2C the phonetic database at the UCLA Phonetics Lab=2C d=
> oes not
>> >> >> report such a sound=2C not because humans can't learn to produce it=
> =2C as
>> >> >> Mark has demostrated=2C but because human languages have so far not=
>  made
>> >> >> use of it. The IPA is=2C among other things=2C a representation of =
> the
>> >> >> sounds human languages actually use.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ease of articulation is one factor in language change=2C but it's f=
> ar
>> >> >> from the only one. If loss and development of sounds were simply a
>> >> >> matter of ease of articulation=2C then we would have no explanation=
>  for
>> >> >> the fact that languages not only lose but also develop some fairly
>> >> >> difficult sounds=2C difficult in the sense that they are learned la=
> ter
>> >> >> than other sounds as children acquire the language as a native
>> >> >> language.
>> > > >>
>> >> >> Herb
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue=2C Jun 9=2C 2009 at 1:06 PM=2C Tom
>> >>Zurinskas<truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the
>> >> >>mail header -----------------------
>> > > >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----------
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If the iPA does not recognize these velar
>> >> >>trills or alveolar trills (Spanish r) it is
>> >> >>sorely lacking. They are real. They are the
>> >> >>most often made sounds outside of the English
>> >> >>foenubet (set of sounds) ref truespel book one.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I'd say that all sounds are not equal in
>> >> >>difficulty. The harder ones have been dropped
>> >> >>from USA English=2C like the trilled r (which you
>> >> >>can still hear in Edison recordings=2C eg the
>> >> >>word great with a multi-trilled r ~grqaet). The
>> >> >>most difficult sounds would seem to be those
>> >> >>showing droppings=2C like ~th=2C ~t=2C ~h=2C ~r=2C ~au
>> >> >>(awe)=2C ~l (widow wed wabbit). There would
>> >> >>appear to be more mouth-work in saying them=2C so
>> >> >>folks might want to work around them.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+
>> >> >> > see truespel.com
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ----------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> Date: Tue=2C 9 Jun 2009 10:06:03 -0400
>> >> >> >> From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM
>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> >> >> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the
>> >> >>mail header -----------------------
>> >> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> >> >> >> Poster: Mark Mandel
>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: velar trill (was: ~Yeshuewu)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----------
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Herb:
>> >> >> >>> There is no IPA symbol for the sound. =C2 Apparently IPA covers=
>  only
>> >> >> >>> terrestrial languages.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Randy:
>> >> > > >>> Yes=2C for that you'd have to use the
>> >>EPA (Extraterrestrial Paraphonetic
>> >> >> >>> Alphabet)=2C now under construction. =C2 It uses a quantum matr=
> ix of
>> >> >> >>> decillions of symbolic representations of a wide variety of cod=
> able
>> >> >> >>> media. =C2 A notable example is chemolfactory character set:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread281472/pg1
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> " I'm imagining non-auditory languages. For example=2C one in w=
> hich
>> >> >> >>> creatures emit chemicals and they smell
>> >> >>each other. Imagine hundreds of thousands of
>> >> >>chemical building blocks in a language. Very
>> >> >>smelly."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I used to say with assurance that no human language would use th=
> is
>> >> >> >> phone (which I write phonetically as k with a tilde)=2C at least
>> >> >> >> lexically=2C because the physical effort was too great. But as i=
> t came
>> >> >> >> with practice=2C I realized that that could be simply the same
>> >> >> >> lectocentrism that brands velar and uvular trills=2C clicks=2C f=
> ront
>> >> >> >> rounded vowels=2C and any other phone that's not in own language=
>  as
>> >> >> >> "hard".
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> There are attested (in sf) olfactory languages. The citation I'm
>> >> >> >> thinking of=2C though I can't recall the title or author=2C is a=
> t least 45
>> >> >> >> years old and features two humans and an alien who is "cabin boy=
> " of
>> >> >> >> his ship. Since his actual name is literally unprintable=2C the =
> author
>> >> >> >> nicknames him "Tommy Loy"=2C and ends the story with a very shag=
> gy
>> >> >> >> allusion.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Klingon=2C however=2C was developedXXXXXXXX documented by a huma=
> n
>> >> >> >> linguist=2C Dr. Marc Okrand=2C and is representable in IPA.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> m a m
>> >> >> >>
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