"i" before "e" except after "c" (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tue Jun 23 23:48:25 UTC 2009

Similar bad reporting on BBC Radio 4, according to Geoff Pullum:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1525

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm with you guys.
>
> They covered this "story" on NPR tonight, and nobody concerned seemed to
> have the slightest understanding of the purpose of the "rule." They talked
> at length with some English jackass who seemed to believe that the "rule"
> was responsible for
> the spellings rather than the other way around, and that teachers who taught
> the "rule" were unscientifically trying to restrain the growth of language.
> ("They haven't a clue," was his judgment, IIRC.)
>
> He waxed enthusiastic about a guy in Syria he'd heard utter a three-word
> sentence (sorry I couldn't catch it all) in which one word was English
> ("OK"), one was French and one was Arabic.
> He indicated that teachers of the "rule" were the sworn enemies of this
> fellow.
>
> Slow news day? Or SOTA?
>
> JL
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Geoff Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Geoff Nathan <geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: "i" before "e" except after "c" (UNCLASSIFIED)
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Further to Bill's comments, I had always understood the rule to be a 'guide
> > to the perplexed' (with apologies to Rambam) telling us which of the two
> > alternatives to choose under the appropriate circumstances.  And since
> > nobody in their right mind would try to spell 'science' as 'sceince' such
> > instances would not arise.
> > Spelling rules of thumb are exactly that--heuristics, not algorithms.
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> > Geoffrey S. Nathan
> > Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> > and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program
> > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
> > +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics)
> >
> > ----- "Bill AMRDEC Mullins" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
> >
> > > From: "Bill AMRDEC Mullins" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:39:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> > > Subject: Re: "i" before "e" except after "c" (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> > > Subject:      Re: "i" before "e" except after "c" (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> > > Caveats: NONE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> > > > Behalf Of Tom Zurinskas
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 7:31 PM
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > Subject: "i" before "e" except after "c"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I examined the; "i" before "e" except after "c" rule (cei vs. cie).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The database of truespel book 4 is used to analyze the number
> > > > of words with tradstreengz "cie" and "cei".  The data involves
> > > > the top 5k most popular words in English print.  The overall word
> > > > instances for these 5k words 15.4 million.  For example, the word
> > > > "the" is most popular with 1.08 M instances out of 15.4 M total.
> > > >
> > > > RESULTS
> > > >
> > > > There are only four words containing "cei" in the top 5k words.
> > > > These are: received, receive, ceiling, and receiving in order.
> > > > They add up to 3,077 instances in 15.4 M instances total.
> > > > (Yet this is supposed to be the majority form.)
> > > >
> > > > There are 16 words with "cie" (which is opposite the rule).
> > > > They add up to 17,351 instances.
> > > > These words are (in order of popularity):
> > > > society, science, species, ancient, scientific, societies,
> > > > policies, scientists, sufficient, efficient, efficiency,
> > > sufficiently,
> > > > conscience, sciences, agencies, scientist.
> > > >
> > > > CONCLUSION
> > > > The "i" before "e" except after "c" rule is busted.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Have you set up something of a straw man here?  I've never perceived
> > > the
> > > "rule" to be necessary or apply to words in which the "i" and "e" are
> > > in
> > > parts of two different syllables (from your example, Society,
> > > Science,
> > > Scientific, Societies, Scientists, sciences, scientist), or in cases
> > > where "ies" is an inflection of words ending in "y" (your Policies
> > > and
> > > Agencies, also Fancied).  If you take out these examples from your
> > > statistics, how does the data look?
> > >
> > > Further, when I mentally "sound out" a word to spell it, I deal with
> > > "cient/cienc" as (for example) sufficient/Suh-fish-ee-ent, internally
> > > breaking "ie" into two syllables.  I realize that this isn't standard
> > > pronunciation (and I don't actually pronounce the words that way),
> > > but
> > > it leads me to the conclusion that when the "c" in "cie" is soft
> > > ch/sh,
> > > the rule doesn't apply in an analogous way to the two-syllable
> > > exception
> > > I mention above.
> > >
> > > With these addenda to the "rule", the only exception left is
> > > "species"
> > > -- not sufficient, I would think, to bust the rule.
> > >
> > > I'm surprised that "receipt", "perceive", "conceive", "conceit",
> > > "deceive" and "deceit" (and associated forms) aren't in your list.
> > > "Transceiver" isn't as common, but is still common enough that your
> > > net
> > > should be cast wide enough to include
> > > it.
> > >
> > > If you expanded your sample size so that most of the words I list in
> > > the
> > > paragraph immediately preceding are included, and remove as
> > > exceptions
> > > those words in which "i" and "e" are parts of two separate syllables,
> > > I'd bet that the rule applies (even if a sample space of this size
> > > ends
> > > up including "regencies", "efficiencies", and "necromancies").
> > >
> > >
> > > I learned the full form of the rule:
> > >
> > > **************
> > > I before E
> > > Except after C
> > > Or when sounded as A
> > > As in neighbor and weigh.
> > > *************************
> > > and the rule works for me.  And by works, I mean that when I'm
> > > stumped
> > > on how to spell a word, the rule gives useful guidance in my
> > > experience.
> > > It may be that I instinctively know how to spell your exception
> > > words,
> > > and never apply the rule to them, but nevertheless, when I do apply
> > > it,
> > > it is helpful.  Which is the standard by which I judge the rule's
> > > utility.
> > >
> > >
> > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> > > Caveats: NONE
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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