velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday

Fri Mar 6 22:59:14 UTC 2009

Herb,

We seem to be getting there.  Personally, I can't say an "l" without putting my tongue to the top of my gums. That makes "l" alveolar not velar.  When I say the word "clock" the tongue for "c" goes to the back roof of the mouth, velar region, then for the "l" sound opens wide for "l" while the tip of the tongue is alveolar. This is before the vowel "o" ~aa.  After a vowel is no different.  Also, the vowel sound in "put or pull" is far more open at the velum than say "ee" is. 

In summary, I'd say the velum plays no primary or secondary role in saying the "l" sound ~l. If anything the tongue is pulled away from the velum while being alveolar engaged.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ 
see truespel.com

> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:49:17 -0500
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> 
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tom,
> 
> AmE /l/ before a vowel has the tip of tongue on the alveolar ridge and
> the airstream passing around one or both sides of the tongue. This
> articulation also holds for post-vocalic /l/ except that for most AmE
> speakers the back of the tongue is also raised towards the velum,
> approximately to the position for the vowel /U/ as in "put." The back
> of the tongue does not touch the velum. This gesture when combined
> with a consonant articulation is called "velarization" and is one of
> three common secondary articulations. The other two are
> palatalization and labialization, which are secondary narrowings at
> the palate and at the lips respectively.
> 
> Herb
> 
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > For an "l" I've got the tongue hitting the upper gums=2C not the velar regi=
> > on. I can't conceive of "l" being called velar.
> >
> > Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
> > see truespel.com
> >
> >
> > =20
> >> Date: Fri=2C 6 Mar 2009 07:45:31 -0500
> >> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>=20
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------=
> > ------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > ------
> >>=20
> >> Wilson=2C
> >>=20
> >> You got my point=2C and thanks for the observation on the vowel
> >> transition before /l/. My students always had problems with
> >> transcribing vowels before final /l/=2C which usually provided a good
> >> teaching opportunity.
> >>=20
> >> Tom=2C on the other hand=2C misses the point as usual. Velarization=2C To=
> > m=2C
> >> is not velar closure. The back of the tongue is raised but not high
> >> enough to touch the velum. This has a clear acoustic effect on the
> >> consonant=2C in this case /l/. You have some grasp of the "place of
> >> articulation" parameter=2C at least that it exists=2C but you seem totall=
> > y
> >> unaware of the "manner of articulation" parameter. If you won't take
> >> a course=2C at least read a good text on phonetics. I recommend Peter
> >> Ladefoged's A Course in Linguistics=2C 5th ed. (Thomson Learning 2005).
> >> The book comes with a CD=2C so you'll be able to hear what sounds IPA
> >> symbols represent. You can also find the content of the CD on line at
> >> http://www.ladefogeds.com/course/contents.html.
> >>=20
> >> Herb
> >>=20
> >> On Fri=2C Mar 6=2C 2009 at 1:13 AM=2C Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrot=
> > e:
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------=
> > --------
> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >> > Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> >> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > --------
> >> >
> >> > My WAG is that it's a feature of her dialect. BE doesn't have the
> >> > style of articulation that makes the pronunciation of=2C e.g. "cool" by
> >> > (Northern) white speakers sound to us like 'koo-wool" and causes BE
> >> > "cool" to sound like "coo" to white speakers. As a further
> >> > consequence=2C some BE speakers overcorrect=2C e.g. "table" to "taber"
> >> > [tEIbr].
> >> >
> >> > If I haven't missed your point.
> >> >
> >> > -Wilson
> >> > =E2=80=93=E2=80=93=E2=80=93
> >> > All say=2C "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint t=
> > o
> >> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >> > -----
> >> > -Mark Twain
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu=2C Mar 5=2C 2009 at 10:06 PM=2C Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.c=
> > om> wrote:
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------=
> > ---------
> >> >> Sender: =C2 =C2 =C2 American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> Poster: =C2 =C2 =C2 Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >> Subject: =C2 =C2 =C2 velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > ---------
> >> >>
> >> >> This afternoon I was listening to a recording of Billy Holiday singing
> >> >> "Crazy he calls me." =C2 In the line "The impossible will take a littl=
> > e
> >> >> while" she has a schwa before the final /l/ of "impossible" and I
> >> >> don't hear any distinctive velarization of the /l/. =C2 There are seve=
> > ral
> >> >> other post-vocalic /l/s in the song=2C and they don't show much
> >> >> velarization either. =C2 Post-vocalic /l/ is a consistent problem for
> >> >> American English singers=2C since the raising of the back of the tongu=
> > e
> >> >> towards the velum constricts the oral cavity and reduces the overall
> >> >> resonance of the syllable coda. =C2 Some voice teachers and choral
> >> >> conductors will spend time training their singers to use only a
> >> >> non-velarized /l/=2C as a number European languages widely represented
> >> >> in the vocal and choral literature do. =C2 My CD of Billy is=2C of cou=
> > rse=2C
> >> >> a copy=2C and I don't know how good the master was. =C2 It's entirely
> >> >> possible that the fidelity is not good enough to support much in the
> >> >> way of diction comments=2C but my impression is otherwise. =C2 Billy's
> >> >> diction is superb. =C2 Every word she sings is clear=2C even on a copy=
> > of a
> >> >> copy of a 1949 recording. =C2 Billy had little or no formal vocal
> >> >> training=2C so the fact that she doesn't velarize /l/ much=2C if at al=
> > l=2C
> >> >> wouldn't be the result of vocal training. =C2 Is it a feature of her
> >> >> variety of AAE? =C2 Is it idiosyncratic to her distinctive vocal style=
> > ?
> >> >>
> >> >> Herb
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >>=20
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
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