velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday

Sat Mar 7 03:04:57 UTC 2009

No, Tom, we don't.  No one has claimed that English /l/ is not
alveolar.  The question is what's happening in the back of the oral
cavity at the same time.  In post-vocalic /l/, the tongue rises to /U/
position.  There is xray photographic evidence to show that opening
between velum and back of tongue in /U/ is narrower than that in /i/.
With /i/ the narrowing is at the palate, not at the velum.  You were
roughly right about the primary articulation of /l/ and the place of
articulation of /k/.  Otherwise your facts are wrong.  What I don't
understand is, your commitment to your spelling system
notwithstanding, how you can remain so determinedly uninformed about
the basic facts of English phonetics.

Herb

On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Herb=2C
>
> =20
>
> We seem to be getting there.  Personally=2C I can't say an "l" without putt=
> ing my tongue to the top of my gums. That makes "l" alveolar not velar.  Wh=
> en I say the word "clock" the tongue for "c" goes to the back roof of the m=
> outh=2C velar region=2C then for the "l" sound opens wide for "l" while the=
>  tip of the tongue is alveolar. This is before the vowel "o" ~aa.  After a =
> vowel is no different.  Also=2C the vowel sound in "put or pull" is far mor=
> e open at the velum than say "ee" is.=20
>
> =20
>
> In summary=2C I'd say the velum plays no primary or secondary role in sayin=
> g the "l" sound ~l. If anything the tongue is pulled away from the velum wh=
> ile being alveolar engaged.
>
> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
> see truespel.com
>
> =20
>> Date: Fri=2C 6 Mar 2009 13:49:17 -0500
>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>=20
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------=
> ------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
>>=20
>> Tom=2C
>>=20
>> AmE /l/ before a vowel has the tip of tongue on the alveolar ridge and
>> the airstream passing around one or both sides of the tongue. This
>> articulation also holds for post-vocalic /l/ except that for most AmE
>> speakers the back of the tongue is also raised towards the velum=2C
>> approximately to the position for the vowel /U/ as in "put." The back
>> of the tongue does not touch the velum. This gesture when combined
>> with a consonant articulation is called "velarization" and is one of
>> three common secondary articulations. The other two are
>> palatalization and labialization=2C which are secondary narrowings at
>> the palate and at the lips respectively.
>>=20
>> Herb
>>=20
>> On Fri=2C Mar 6=2C 2009 at 12:33 PM=2C Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.co=
> m> wrote:
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------=
> --------
>> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> > Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------
>> >
>> > For an "l" I've got the tongue hitting the upper gums=3D2C not the vela=
> r regi=3D
>> > on. I can't conceive of "l" being called velar.
>> >
>> > Tom Zurinskas=3D2C USA - CT20=3D2C TN3=3D2C NJ33=3D2C FL5+=3D20
>> > see truespel.com
>> >
>> >
>> > =3D20
>> >> Date: Fri=3D2C 6 Mar 2009 07:45:31 -0500
>> >> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> >>=3D20
>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ------
>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ------
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Wilson=3D2C
>> >>=3D20
>> >> You got my point=3D2C and thanks for the observation on the vowel
>> >> transition before /l/. My students always had problems with
>> >> transcribing vowels before final /l/=3D2C which usually provided a goo=
> d
>> >> teaching opportunity.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Tom=3D2C on the other hand=3D2C misses the point as usual. Velarizatio=
> n=3D2C To=3D
>> > m=3D2C
>> >> is not velar closure. The back of the tongue is raised but not high
>> >> enough to touch the velum. This has a clear acoustic effect on the
>> >> consonant=3D2C in this case /l/. You have some grasp of the "place of
>> >> articulation" parameter=3D2C at least that it exists=3D2C but you seem=
>  totall=3D
>> > y
>> >> unaware of the "manner of articulation" parameter. If you won't take
>> >> a course=3D2C at least read a good text on phonetics. I recommend Pete=
> r
>> >> Ladefoged's A Course in Linguistics=3D2C 5th ed. (Thomson Learning 200=
> 5).
>> >> The book comes with a CD=3D2C so you'll be able to hear what sounds IP=
> A
>> >> symbols represent. You can also find the content of the CD on line at
>> >> http://www.ladefogeds.com/course/contents.html.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Herb
>> >>=3D20
>> >> On Fri=3D2C Mar 6=3D2C 2009 at 1:13 AM=3D2C Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.=
> com> wrot=3D
>> > e:
>> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------=
> ---=3D
>> > --------
>> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> > Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > --------
>> >> >
>> >> > My WAG is that it's a feature of her dialect. BE doesn't have the
>> >> > style of articulation that makes the pronunciation of=3D2C e.g. "coo=
> l" by
>> >> > (Northern) white speakers sound to us like 'koo-wool" and causes BE
>> >> > "cool" to sound like "coo" to white speakers. As a further
>> >> > consequence=3D2C some BE speakers overcorrect=3D2C e.g. "table" to "=
> taber"
>> >> > [tEIbr].
>> >> >
>> >> > If I haven't missed your point.
>> >> >
>> >> > -Wilson
>> >> > =3DE2=3D80=3D93=3DE2=3D80=3D93=3DE2=3D80=3D93
>> >> > All say=3D2C "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange compla=
> int t=3D
>> > o
>> >> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> >> > -----
>> >> > -Mark Twain
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu=3D2C Mar 5=3D2C 2009 at 10:06 PM=3D2C Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlk=
> e at gmail.c=3D
>> > om> wrote:
>> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---------
>> >> >> Sender: =3DC2 =3DC2 =3DC2 American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.=
> UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> Poster: =3DC2 =3DC2 =3DC2 Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> >> Subject: =3DC2 =3DC2 =3DC2 velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This afternoon I was listening to a recording of Billy Holiday sing=
> ing
>> >> >> "Crazy he calls me." =3DC2 In the line "The impossible will take a =
> littl=3D
>> > e
>> >> >> while" she has a schwa before the final /l/ of "impossible" and I
>> >> >> don't hear any distinctive velarization of the /l/. =3DC2 There are=
>  seve=3D
>> > ral
>> >> >> other post-vocalic /l/s in the song=3D2C and they don't show much
>> >> >> velarization either. =3DC2 Post-vocalic /l/ is a consistent problem=
>  for
>> >> >> American English singers=3D2C since the raising of the back of the =
> tongu=3D
>> > e
>> >> >> towards the velum constricts the oral cavity and reduces the overal=
> l
>> >> >> resonance of the syllable coda. =3DC2 Some voice teachers and chora=
> l
>> >> >> conductors will spend time training their singers to use only a
>> >> >> non-velarized /l/=3D2C as a number European languages widely repres=
> ented
>> >> >> in the vocal and choral literature do. =3DC2 My CD of Billy is=3D2C=
>  of cou=3D
>> > rse=3D2C
>> >> >> a copy=3D2C and I don't know how good the master was. =3DC2 It's en=
> tirely
>> >> >> possible that the fidelity is not good enough to support much in th=
> e
>> >> >> way of diction comments=3D2C but my impression is otherwise. =3DC2 =
> Billy's
>> >> >> diction is superb. =3DC2 Every word she sings is clear=3D2C even on=
>  a copy=3D
>> > of a
>> >> >> copy of a 1949 recording. =3DC2 Billy had little or no formal vocal
>> >> >> training=3D2C so the fact that she doesn't velarize /l/ much=3D2C i=
> f at al=3D
>> > l=3D2C
>> >> >> wouldn't be the result of vocal training. =3DC2 Is it a feature of =
> her
>> >> >> variety of AAE? =3DC2 Is it idiosyncratic to her distinctive vocal =
> style=3D
>> > ?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Herb
>> >> >>
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