velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday

Sat Mar 7 15:54:46 UTC 2009

Tom,

I believe you used to work for the FAA?  I hope you took research
literature on air safety more seriously than uninformed lay opinion?

Herb

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I forgot Herb.  Books are right and people are wrong.  Thanks for the insight.
>
>
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
>
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>
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>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 08:24:35 -0500
>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> Your intuition is just as wrong as the medieval intuition that the
>> earth was flat and that the sun went around it. And you can see
>> what's wrong with your intuition by looking at any phonetics text.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Herb=2C Great. The letter "l" is alveolar not velar. But I would still in=
>>> tuit that the tongue is closer to the velar region when saying a long e ~ee=
>>> than a short oo ~oo ("leek" vs "look").
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> Regards truespel phonetic spelling development=2C the point of articulation=
>>> was not taken into account during it's development=2C merely the prevelent=
>>> English spelling forms for sounds. That's why=2C for instance=2C the soun=
>>> d of "ou" in "out" is foespeld ~ou rather than ~au (which is German not Eng=
>>> lish).
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> The truespel notation spelling choices are backed up by two studies=2C true=
>>> spel books 1 and 4. Book 1 looks into phoneme spelling frequency for a lis=
>>> t of 57 k words. Book 4 looks into phoneme frequency of the 5k most common=
>>> words weighted by how often they appear in text. There are some big diffe=
>>> rences. If you like reading spreadsheet after spreadsheet=2C these books a=
>>> re for you.
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> Truespel has tremendous advantages over IPA for application to English lear=
>>> ners as I've mentioned before.
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
>>> see truespel.com
>>>
>>> =20
>>>> Date: Fri=2C 6 Mar 2009 22:04:57 -0500
>>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>=20
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------=
>>> ------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>> ------
>>>>=20
>>>> No=2C Tom=2C we don't. No one has claimed that English /l/ is not
>>>> alveolar. The question is what's happening in the back of the oral
>>>> cavity at the same time. In post-vocalic /l/=2C the tongue rises to /U/
>>>> position. There is xray photographic evidence to show that opening
>>>> between velum and back of tongue in /U/ is narrower than that in /i/.
>>>> With /i/ the narrowing is at the palate=2C not at the velum. You were
>>>> roughly right about the primary articulation of /l/ and the place of
>>>> articulation of /k/. Otherwise your facts are wrong. What I don't
>>>> understand is=2C your commitment to your spelling system
>>>> notwithstanding=2C how you can remain so determinedly uninformed about
>>>> the basic facts of English phonetics.
>>>>=20
>>>> Herb
>>>>=20
>>>> On Fri=2C Mar 6=2C 2009 at 5:59 PM=2C Tom Zurinskas>>> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------=
>>> --------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>> --------
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb=3D2C
>>>>>
>>>>> =3D20
>>>>>
>>>>> We seem to be getting there. Personally=3D2C I can't say an "l" without=
>>> putt=3D
>>>>> ing my tongue to the top of my gums. That makes "l" alveolar not velar.=
>>> Wh=3D
>>>>> en I say the word "clock" the tongue for "c" goes to the back roof of t=
>>> he m=3D
>>>>> outh=3D2C velar region=3D2C then for the "l" sound opens wide for "l" w=
>>> hile the=3D
>>>>> tip of the tongue is alveolar. This is before the vowel "o" ~aa. After =
>>> a =3D
>>>>> vowel is no different. Also=3D2C the vowel sound in "put or pull" is fa=
>>> r mor=3D
>>>>> e open at the velum than say "ee" is.=3D20
>>>>>
>>>>> =3D20
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary=3D2C I'd say the velum plays no primary or secondary role in=
>>> sayin=3D
>>>>> g the "l" sound ~l. If anything the tongue is pulled away from the velu=
>>> m wh=3D
>>>>> ile being alveolar engaged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Zurinskas=3D2C USA - CT20=3D2C TN3=3D2C NJ33=3D2C FL5+=3D20
>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>
>>>>> =3D20
>>>>>> Date: Fri=3D2C 6 Mar 2009 13:49:17 -0500
>>>>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ------
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> Tom=3D2C
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> AmE /l/ before a vowel has the tip of tongue on the alveolar ridge and
>>>>>> the airstream passing around one or both sides of the tongue. This
>>>>>> articulation also holds for post-vocalic /l/ except that for most AmE
>>>>>> speakers the back of the tongue is also raised towards the velum=3D2C
>>>>>> approximately to the position for the vowel /U/ as in "put." The back
>>>>>> of the tongue does not touch the velum. This gesture when combined
>>>>>> with a consonant articulation is called "velarization" and is one of
>>>>>> three common secondary articulations. The other two are
>>>>>> palatalization and labialization=3D2C which are secondary narrowings a=
>>> t
>>>>>> the palate and at the lips respectively.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> On Fri=3D2C Mar 6=3D2C 2009 at 12:33 PM=3D2C Tom Zurinskas>> otmail.co=3D
>>>>> m> wrote:
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> --------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For an "l" I've got the tongue hitting the upper gums=3D3D2C not the=
>>> vela=3D
>>>>> r regi=3D3D
>>>>>>> on. I can't conceive of "l" being called velar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas=3D3D2C USA - CT20=3D3D2C TN3=3D3D2C NJ33=3D3D2C FL5+=
>>> =3D3D20
>>>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> =3D3D20
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri=3D3D2C 6 Mar 2009 07:45:31 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>>> Wilson=3D3D2C
>>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>>> You got my point=3D3D2C and thanks for the observation on the vowel
>>>>>>>> transition before /l/. My students always had problems with
>>>>>>>> transcribing vowels before final /l/=3D3D2C which usually provided =
>>> a goo=3D
>>>>> d
>>>>>>>> teaching opportunity.
>>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>>> Tom=3D3D2C on the other hand=3D3D2C misses the point as usual. Vela=
>>> rizatio=3D
>>>>> n=3D3D2C To=3D3D
>>>>>>> m=3D3D2C
>>>>>>>> is not velar closure. The back of the tongue is raised but not high
>>>>>>>> enough to touch the velum. This has a clear acoustic effect on the
>>>>>>>> consonant=3D3D2C in this case /l/. You have some grasp of the "plac=
>>> e of
>>>>>>>> articulation" parameter=3D3D2C at least that it exists=3D3D2C but y=
>>> ou seem=3D
>>>>> totall=3D3D
>>>>>>> y
>>>>>>>> unaware of the "manner of articulation" parameter. If you won't tak=
>>> e
>>>>>>>> a course=3D3D2C at least read a good text on phonetics. I recommend=
>>> Pete=3D
>>>>> r
>>>>>>>> Ladefoged's A Course in Linguistics=3D3D2C 5th ed. (Thomson Learnin=
>>> g 200=3D
>>>>> 5).
>>>>>>>> The book comes with a CD=3D3D2C so you'll be able to hear what soun=
>>> ds IP=3D
>>>>> A
>>>>>>>> symbols represent. You can also find the content of the CD on line =
>>> at
>>>>>>>> http://www.ladefogeds.com/course/contents.html.
>>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>>> On Fri=3D3D2C Mar 6=3D3D2C 2009 at 1:13 AM=3D3D2C Wilson Gray>> ay at gmail.=3D
>>>>> com> wrot=3D3D
>>>>>>> e:
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My WAG is that it's a feature of her dialect. BE doesn't have the
>>>>>>>>> style of articulation that makes the pronunciation of=3D3D2C e.g.=
>>> "coo=3D
>>>>> l" by
>>>>>>>>> (Northern) white speakers sound to us like 'koo-wool" and causes =
>>> BE
>>>>>>>>> "cool" to sound like "coo" to white speakers. As a further
>>>>>>>>> consequence=3D3D2C some BE speakers overcorrect=3D3D2C e.g. "tabl=
>>> e" to "=3D
>>>>> taber"
>>>>>>>>> [tEIbr].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I haven't missed your point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>>>> =3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93=3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93=3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93
>>>>>>>>> All say=3D3D2C "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange c=
>>> ompla=3D
>>>>> int t=3D3D
>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu=3D3D2C Mar 5=3D3D2C 2009 at 10:06 PM=3D3D2C Herb Stahlke <=
>>> hfwstahlk=3D
>>>>> e at gmail.c=3D3D
>>>>>>> om> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>>>> Sender: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 American Dialect Society>> LISTSERV.=3D
>>>>> UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>>>> Poster: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 Herb Stahlke>> OM>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------=
>>> ---=3D
>>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This afternoon I was listening to a recording of Billy Holiday s=
>>> ing=3D
>>>>> ing
>>>>>>>>>> "Crazy he calls me." =3D3DC2 In the line "The impossible will ta=
>>> ke a =3D
>>>>> littl=3D3D
>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>> while" she has a schwa before the final /l/ of "impossible" and =
>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't hear any distinctive velarization of the /l/. =3D3DC2 Ther=
>>> e are=3D
>>>>> seve=3D3D
>>>>>>> ral
>>>>>>>>>> other post-vocalic /l/s in the song=3D3D2C and they don't show m=
>>> uch
>>>>>>>>>> velarization either. =3D3DC2 Post-vocalic /l/ is a consistent pr=
>>> oblem=3D
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> American English singers=3D3D2C since the raising of the back of=
>>> the =3D
>>>>> tongu=3D3D
>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>> towards the velum constricts the oral cavity and reduces the ove=
>>> ral=3D
>>>>> l
>>>>>>>>>> resonance of the syllable coda. =3D3DC2 Some voice teachers and =
>>> chora=3D
>>>>> l
>>>>>>>>>> conductors will spend time training their singers to use only a
>>>>>>>>>> non-velarized /l/=3D3D2C as a number European languages widely r=
>>> epres=3D
>>>>> ented
>>>>>>>>>> in the vocal and choral literature do. =3D3DC2 My CD of Billy is=
>>> =3D3D2C=3D
>>>>> of cou=3D3D
>>>>>>> rse=3D3D2C
>>>>>>>>>> a copy=3D3D2C and I don't know how good the master was. =3D3DC2 =
>>> It's en=3D
>>>>> tirely
>>>>>>>>>> possible that the fidelity is not good enough to support much in=
>>> th=3D
>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>> way of diction comments=3D3D2C but my impression is otherwise. =
>>> =3D3DC2 =3D
>>>>> Billy's
>>>>>>>>>> diction is superb. =3D3DC2 Every word she sings is clear=3D3D2C =
>>> even on=3D
>>>>> a copy=3D3D
>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>>> copy of a 1949 recording. =3D3DC2 Billy had little or no formal =
>>> vocal
>>>>>>>>>> training=3D3D2C so the fact that she doesn't velarize /l/ much=
>>> =3D3D2C i=3D
>>>>> f at al=3D3D
>>>>>>> l=3D3D2C
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be the result of vocal training. =3D3DC2 Is it a featur=
>>> e of =3D
>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>> variety of AAE? =3D3DC2 Is it idiosyncratic to her distinctive v=
>>> ocal =3D
>>>>> style=3D3D
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>
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