Wedge and schwa

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Mon Mar 9 15:15:23 UTC 2009


At 2:15 PM +0000 3/8/09, ronbutters at aol.com wrote:
>I am confused about the difference between wedge and schwa. I
>thought the former was just a conventional way of indicating the
>latter. Explain?

They are different vowels in the IPA; the wedge is both further back
(as the unrounded counterpart of open-o) and a bit lower (or more
"open") than the schwa.  This doesn't reflect the fact that many
transcribers use schwa for unstressed vowels and wedge for the vowel
of "cup".

LH

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>
>Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:48:22
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: [ADS-L] velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>
>
>No.  My diphthongs start, at the lowest, at about V.  I suppose in
>careful speech I might start lower.  I do have the low back
>rounded/unrounded contrast in cot/caught but open o only in diphthongs
>/OI/ and /Or/.  I described the system in a note in a paper in Word,
>"Fortis and lenis obstruents in English."
>
>Herb
>
>On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Gordon, Matthew J.
><GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>>  Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Curiouser and curiouser!
>>  Do you have low nuclei for these diphthongs in other contexts?=20
>>  I'm sorry for the questions, but I don't recall having seen this system =
>>  in the literature.
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Herb Stahlke
>>  Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 10:30 PM
>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>  =20
>>  Matt,
>>
>>  Right on V, but @ is schwa, following Kirshenbaum's ASCII IPA
>>  (http://www.blahedo.org/ascii-ipa.html).
>>
>>  I should have added to the examples
>>
>>  /h at Id/  (v.) "hide"
>>  /hVId/  (n.) "hide"
>>
>>  Herb
>>
>>  On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Gordon, Matthew J.
>>  <GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>>  -----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  Poster:       "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>>>  Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>  =
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>  ------
>>>
>>>  Herb:=3D20
>>>  Could you clarify your notation? i think you intend @ for script a, =
>>  the =3D
>>>  low back unrounded vowel, V for wedge. Is that right?
>>>
>>>  -Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Herb Stahlke
>>>  Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 5:48 PM
>>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>  Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>  =3D20
>>>  My SE Michigan variant of Inland Northern distinguishes raised and
>>>  lowered diphthong onsets.  This looks like Canadian Raising except
>>>  that in certain environments, including open syllables and before /d/
>>>  and /nd/, it's phonemic.  So I distinguish the following:
>>>
>>>  k at Ind  "variety, sort"
>>>  kVInd  "well-disposed"
>>>
>>>  r at Und  (preposition, as in "round the corner")
>>>  rVUnd  (adj., as in "round ball")
>>>
>>>  h at I  (greeting, "hello")
>>>  hVI  (adj., "high")
>>>
>>>  b at rd  "poet"
>>>  bVrd  "barred"
>>>
>>>  These contrasts cannot be captured a system based on broadcast AmE or
>>>  any other single dialect, unless, of course, it's mine.
>>>
>>>  Of course, SE Mich isn't unique.  Any regional or social dialect in
>>>  AmE has its own contrasts that require  phonemes distinct from some
>>>  putative standard.
>>>
>>>  Herb
>>>  On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> =
>>  =3D
>>>  wrote:
>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header =3D
>>>  -----------------------
>>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>  >>> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>  >>> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>  =3D
>>>  ------
>>>>
>>>>  The problem is that tradspel English is actually the oddly spelled =
>>  =3D
>>>  one.  But we're all used to it.  Once the spelling of the 40 phonemes =
>>  =3D
>>>  are learned one can read anything phonetically in the USA dialect it =
>>  =3D
>>>  represents.  Other symbols are needed for the other languages and =3D
>>>  dialects.
>>>>
>>>>  I do be believe that US dialects are all within the USA English =3D
>>>  foenubet (set of sounds).
>>>>
>>>>  Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>  see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ----------------------------------------
>>>>>  Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:05:22 -0500
>>>>>  From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET
>>>>>  Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>
>>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header =3D
>>>  -----------------------
>>>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>  Poster: Alison Murie
>>>>>  Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>  =3D
>>>  ------
>>>>>
>>>>>  I must assume that you preface each sentence with the ordinary =3D
>>>  English
>>>>>  spelling because you know that most people won't be able to read the
>>>>>  rather odd language that truespel apparently represents. That rather
>>>>>  suggests that its vaunted transparency has been overstated.
>>>>>  AM
>>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>  On Mar 7, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>  Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>  Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>  =3D
>>>  ------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ~! indicates my accent (at start and finish)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Tom, why don't you post using truespel
>>>>>>  ~!Taam, Wie doent yue poest yuezeeng truespel~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Sure thing. I also would like to find a phonetic converter for IPA
>>>>>>  to show a comparison. Note that all accents vary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ~!Sher thheeng. Ie aulsoe wood liek tue fiend u funnedik kunvverter
>>>>>>  for IPA tue shoe u kumppairisin. Noet that aul aksents vairee.~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Basically if you run your finger along the phonemes and speak them,
>>>>>>  you are speaking as I speak.
>>>>>>  ~!Basiklee if yue run yer feenger ullaung thu foeneemz and speek
>>>>>>  them, yue aar speekeeng az Ie speek.~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Note that stress is on the first syllable or after a double =3D
>>>  consonant.
>>>>>>  ~!Noet that stres iz aan thu ferst silubool or after u dubool
>>>>>>  kaansunint.~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>>  see truespel.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>  Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 10:45:48 -0500
>>>>>>>  From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET
>>>>>>>  Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>  Poster: Alison Murie
>>>>>>>  Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>  =3D
>>>  ------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Tom, why don't you post using truespel?
>>>>>>>  AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  On Mar 7, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>>>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>  Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>>>  Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>  =3D
>>>  ------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  I forgot Herb. Books are right and people are wrong. Thanks for
>>>>>>>>  the insight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>  >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>  >>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>  Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list.
>>>>>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blo=
>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  g-cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_0320=
>>  09=3D
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>  _________________________________________________________________
>>>>  Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for =3D
>>>  Hotmail=3DAE.
>>>>  =3D
>>>  =
>>  http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=3D3DTX=
>>  T_=3D
>>>  MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org



More information about the Ads-l mailing list