Wedge and schwa
Laurence Horn
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Mon Mar 9 15:15:23 UTC 2009
At 2:15 PM +0000 3/8/09, ronbutters at aol.com wrote:
>I am confused about the difference between wedge and schwa. I
>thought the former was just a conventional way of indicating the
>latter. Explain?
They are different vowels in the IPA; the wedge is both further back
(as the unrounded counterpart of open-o) and a bit lower (or more
"open") than the schwa. This doesn't reflect the fact that many
transcribers use schwa for unstressed vowels and wedge for the vowel
of "cup".
LH
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>
>Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:48:22
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Subject: Re: [ADS-L] velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>
>
>No. My diphthongs start, at the lowest, at about V. I suppose in
>careful speech I might start lower. I do have the low back
>rounded/unrounded contrast in cot/caught but open o only in diphthongs
>/OI/ and /Or/. I described the system in a note in a paper in Word,
>"Fortis and lenis obstruents in English."
>
>Herb
>
>On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Gordon, Matthew J.
><GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Curiouser and curiouser!
>> Do you have low nuclei for these diphthongs in other contexts?=20
>> I'm sorry for the questions, but I don't recall having seen this system =
>> in the literature.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Herb Stahlke
>> Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 10:30 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> =20
>> Matt,
>>
>> Right on V, but @ is schwa, following Kirshenbaum's ASCII IPA
>> (http://www.blahedo.org/ascii-ipa.html).
>>
>> I should have added to the examples
>>
>> /h at Id/ (v.) "hide"
>> /hVId/ (n.) "hide"
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Gordon, Matthew J.
>> <GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>> =
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ------
>>>
>>> Herb:=3D20
>>> Could you clarify your notation? i think you intend @ for script a, =
>> the =3D
>>> low back unrounded vowel, V for wedge. Is that right?
>>>
>>> -Matt
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Herb Stahlke
>>> Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 5:48 PM
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>> =3D20
>>> My SE Michigan variant of Inland Northern distinguishes raised and
>>> lowered diphthong onsets. This looks like Canadian Raising except
>>> that in certain environments, including open syllables and before /d/
>>> and /nd/, it's phonemic. So I distinguish the following:
>>>
>>> k at Ind "variety, sort"
>>> kVInd "well-disposed"
>>>
>>> r at Und (preposition, as in "round the corner")
>>> rVUnd (adj., as in "round ball")
>>>
>>> h at I (greeting, "hello")
>>> hVI (adj., "high")
>>>
>>> b at rd "poet"
>>> bVrd "barred"
>>>
>>> These contrasts cannot be captured a system based on broadcast AmE or
>>> any other single dialect, unless, of course, it's mine.
>>>
>>> Of course, SE Mich isn't unique. Any regional or social dialect in
>>> AmE has its own contrasts that require phonemes distinct from some
>>> putative standard.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> =
>> =3D
>>> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =3D
>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>> =3D
>>> =
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> =3D
>>> ------
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that tradspel English is actually the oddly spelled =
>> =3D
>>> one. But we're all used to it. Once the spelling of the 40 phonemes =
>> =3D
>>> are learned one can read anything phonetically in the USA dialect it =
>> =3D
>>> represents. Other symbols are needed for the other languages and =3D
>>> dialects.
>>>>
>>>> I do be believe that US dialects are all within the USA English =3D
>>> foenubet (set of sounds).
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:05:22 -0500
>>>>> From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET
>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =3D
>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Alison Murie
>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>> =3D
>>> =
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> =3D
>>> ------
>>>>>
>>>>> I must assume that you preface each sentence with the ordinary =3D
>>> English
>>>>> spelling because you know that most people won't be able to read the
>>>>> rather odd language that truespel apparently represents. That rather
>>>>> suggests that its vaunted transparency has been overstated.
>>>>> AM
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> On Mar 7, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>> =3D
>>> =
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> =3D
>>> ------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~! indicates my accent (at start and finish)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom, why don't you post using truespel
>>>>>> ~!Taam, Wie doent yue poest yuezeeng truespel~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure thing. I also would like to find a phonetic converter for IPA
>>>>>> to show a comparison. Note that all accents vary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~!Sher thheeng. Ie aulsoe wood liek tue fiend u funnedik kunvverter
>>>>>> for IPA tue shoe u kumppairisin. Noet that aul aksents vairee.~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Basically if you run your finger along the phonemes and speak them,
>>>>>> you are speaking as I speak.
>>>>>> ~!Basiklee if yue run yer feenger ullaung thu foeneemz and speek
>>>>>> them, yue aar speekeeng az Ie speek.~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that stress is on the first syllable or after a double =3D
>>> consonant.
>>>>>> ~!Noet that stres iz aan thu ferst silubool or after u dubool
>>>>>> kaansunint.~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 10:45:48 -0500
>>>>>>> From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Alison Murie
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>> =3D
>>> =
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> =3D
>>> ------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom, why don't you post using truespel?
>>>>>>> AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>> =3D
>>> =
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> =3D
>>> ------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I forgot Herb. Books are right and people are wrong. Thanks for
>>>>>>>> the insight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>> 09=3D
>>>
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>>
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>
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