Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)

Herb Stahlke hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
Sat Mar 14 01:26:23 UTC 2009 

Tom,

Your interest is in a phonemic writing system, a goal that is not
without its own problems.  But for many of us our interest is the
description of language, a big part of what the science of language is
about.  So for those of us with that interest, what happens to sounds
in different positions is important information.  It's involved not
just in the complete description of a particular language, but it also
tells us things about how language changes.  There was a time in
English, in the Old English period, from about 500AD to 1100AD, when
[f] and [v] were allophones of [/f/, [T] and [D] were allophones of
/T/, [s] and [z] were allophones of /s/, and [k] and [C] (as in
"chip") were allophones of /k/.  At that time it was impossible for
English speakers to have a contrast like "fine" and "vine" because [v]
only occurred between vowels.  Each of these allophones ultimately
developed into phonemes during the Middle English period (1100-1500).
Will modern American light and dark /l/ ultimately become separate
phonemes?  Probably not, considering that dark /l/ seems to be taking
over in all positions for many speakers, but no one can say that it's
not possible.

For many speakers what happens with final, dark /l/ when there's a
following syllable is that the dark /l/ remains in syllable final
position but then the back of the tongue lowers so that the initial
/l/ of the following syllable becomes light, as I think Ron may have
pointed out.  You're not far off on what happens to "jumped" before a
vowel-initial word, although your treatment of N is still contrary to
what we know about English.

Herb

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for the excellent example.  Certainly, with dark and light "l" we're dealing with allophones.  In fact I think it rather silly to flag the fact that when the "l" is at the end of a word it becomes "dark", by a raising of the tongue to the velar, and then to say the dark goes away if another syllable or even word is added.  What's the big deal.
>
> For instance the single word "fill" is said to have dark "l" but "filler" or and ""fill it up" in a sentence would not because the "l" sound transfers to lead the next syllable or word.  I actually feel that when the single word ending in "l" is said the tongue is lowered for the "l" then returns upward toward the velum to close out or stop the word.
>
> This also works for endings of single word pronunciations of "jumped" and "sing". Said indivitually you might hear "jumpt" and "sing" without a full "g" as the mouth shuts for closure.  Yet When put in sentences like "He jumped over it" and "sing it loud", the last consonant moves to begin the next word and changes to its original form.  We don't say "jump tover" we say "jump dover".  Also "seen git loud."(the "g" gets sounded with a velar n).  So words said in isolation are not representative of their majority use.  But we're just talking allophones.  No big deal in a simple phonetic notation to flag them.
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:06:37 -0400
>> From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET
>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Neal Whitman
>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/linguistics/russell/phonetics/narrower/dark-l.html
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom Zurinskas"
>> To:
>> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>> header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> It would be good to list some words both for near-velar (dark l) versus
>>> non-velar (regular l) so I can hear them in thefreedictionary.com and
>>> compare them. I don't understand why "mill" would be dark l. Is it
>>> because "l" is the last syllable? I don't think "milt" is near velar.
>>> Are we talking USA accent?
>>>
>>> For a simple notation like truespel, those l's would be merely spelled as
>>> "l". The same applies to velar n and regular n. Also palatized k and
>>> velar k.
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>> see truespel.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 23:27:29 -0400
>>>> From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET
>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>> header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Neal Whitman
>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> That's right; velarized /l/ is an allophone of /l/. If you've listened to
>>>> Americans speaking English, you've heard it. If you're writing a phonemic
>>>> transcription, there's no special notation for it -- at least, not in
>>>> English, since nonvelarized ("clear") /l/ and velarized ("dark") /l/ are
>>>> allophones of the same phoneme in English. "Mill", for example, would be
>>>> /mIl/, even though the /l/ in it would (for most speakers) be velarized.
>>>>
>>>> But someone writing a phonetic transcription would probably note the
>>>> difference. There is an IPA symbol for velarized /l/; it's [l] with a
>>>> tilde
>>>> across it. In a phonetic transcription, "mill" would be [mIl~] (with ~
>>>> superimposed on l).
>>>>
>>>> Neal
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom Zurinskas"
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:04 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>> header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> It's interesting to know that there is such a thing as a velarized "l"
>>>>> as
>>>>> explained here. I can't say I've heard it and will listen for it. I try
>>>>> to say it myself, but have great difficulty. I suppose it's an allophone
>>>>> of regular "l" and gets no special notation for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:52:40 -0400
>>>>>> From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>> header -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Neal Whitman
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First of all, we're not calling a dark /l/ a "velar /l/", but (as I
>>>>>> noted
>>>>>> earlier) a "velarIZED /l/". To me, "velar /l/" would mean the use of
>>>>>> [N]
>>>>>> ("ng") in place of an /l/, as in "I [N]ike [N]o[N]ipops." If your
>>>>>> objection
>>>>>> to "velarized" is that the tongue is not actually touching the velum,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> even getting close enough to cause frication, that's a reasonable
>>>>>> objection.
>>>>>> There are probably others who have learned the term and have thought
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same thing. I certainly didn't know what a velarized /l/ was, even
>>>>>> though
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> knew what a velar consonant was, until the term was explained to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the term's favor, however, there is the fact that the back of the
>>>>>> tongue
>>>>>> is raised TOWARD the velum. We don't want to just say "/l/ with the
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the tongue raised somewhat", not only because that's long and awkward,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> because that could also describe palatalized sounds (vowels or
>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>> nonpalatal consonants formed with the tongue raised toward the hard
>>>>>> palate
>>>>>> while it's doing whatever else it needs to do to make the sound). If
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> have more transparent and more accurate terms to use for "velarized"
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> "palatalized", feel free to introduce them and use them. I read papers
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> the time where the author objects to some term on grounds of inaccuracy
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> likelihood of misunderstanding, and then proposes his or her own term.
>>>>>> Sometimes it gains traction; sometimes it doesn't. (And sometimes it
>>>>>> does,
>>>>>> even though it shouldn't.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Tom Zurinskas"
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:07 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>> header -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A nasal "l"!
>>>>>>> Yeah, I can do that as you've described, I think. Quite a difficult
>>>>>>> stretch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't call it velar, anymore than I'd call the other vowel sounds
>>>>>>> velar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:23:27 -0400
>>>>>>>> From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>>> header -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: Neal Whitman
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Uvular /l/ (Was: velarized /l/ again)
>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Clarification: When they talk about "velar /l/" here, they mean
>>>>>>>> velarIZED
>>>>>>>> (and I think most of them do write 'velarized' instead of 'velar',
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> in the title of the post). As at least one poster has pointed out, a
>>>>>>>> velarIZED /l/ is indeed alveolar: The tongue tip touches the alveolar
>>>>>>>> ridge,
>>>>>>>> but even so, at the same time, the back of the tongue rises somewhat
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> well. (Is it higher than it goes for the [i] sound, an issue you've
>>>>>>>> brought
>>>>>>>> up? I don't know, but I do know it goes up. If you don't do it, your
>>>>>>>> /l/s
>>>>>>>> sound a little off, like Jerry Reed calling the judge a "hillbilly"
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> "When
>>>>>>>> You're Hot, You're Hot, or like Snigdha Prakash when she says
>>>>>>>> "dollars.")
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, when I talk about a uvular /l/, I do mean uvular. I know
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> personal experience of making my /l/s this way as a kid that the tip
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> tongue stayed on the floor of my mouth, and the back of my tongue
>>>>>>>> touched
>>>>>>>> the way back part of my soft palate (i.e. uvula). This sound really
>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>> have anything in common with /l/ at all from an articulatory
>>>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>>> (other than being a voiced continuant). The airstream is not escaping
>>>>>>>> along
>>>>>>>> the sides of the tongue, as it does for alveolar /l/; it's coming out
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> nose, as it does for [m, n, N]. The only reason I call it an /l/ is
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> people who use it really do use it as their realization of /l/. All I
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> guess is that acoustically it must bear a fair resemblance to
>>>>>>>> alveolar
>>>>>>>> /l/.
>>>>>>>> And to make it, I suggest starting to make the [N] ("ng") sound and
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> stretch it out. While you're doing that, slowly slide your tongue
>>>>>>>> backwards
>>>>>>>> so that the contact point is maybe 5mm further back, and then you'll
>>>>>>>> probably be making this sound. And if you want to hear what one
>>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>>> like,
>>>>>>>> listen to Ira Glass on any episode of This American Life; I'm almost
>>>>>>>> positive that's how he's making his /l/s.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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