the three "n" s

Tue Mar 24 19:16:10 UTC 2009

The "n" sounds certainly are not separate phonemes as you say below.

The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob."

> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?

The tongue always comes off the velum for the ending of "sing" which does make a slight ~g sound.  This is the basic sound made for a ~g in quickly flowing speech - a velar pull-off.  If the tongue doesn't come off the velum, the air dam is still in place and the nasal is still going.  You have zero "~g".

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
see truespel.com

----------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:09:17 -0400
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
> different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob." (I
> realize that for those of us without the caught/cot merger "daub" has
> the vowel of "caught.") The reason they seem not to contrast is that
> the contrast is not phonemic before a consonant because nasals are
> always homorganic (same place of articulation) to a following
> syllable-final consonant. But the differences are physically real.
>
> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?
>
> Herb
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Perhaps I should say; "three ways of making the sound ~n". I don't think the three n sounds (in winter,finger,danger) are qualitatively different very much, since airflow is rerouted through the nose in each case. The ~n sound is nasal and doesn't matter much what the tongue or mouth does.
>>
>> I've got a touch of a "g" in "sing", made by the tongue going down off the velum (when saying the word in isolation). But for "sing a song" the "g" becomes fully formed leading the vowel "a". Allophones.
>>
>> Note: I can't say "sing" without pronouncing the vowel as "long e" ~ee before the "ng" or "nk" in the same syllable. I find this typical of UK or USA English even though dictionaries prescribe short i.
>>
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> see truespel.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:48:30 -0400
>>> From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Paul Johnston
>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> You mean the n *sounds*--even your description says that. I won't
>>> reprise everyone else's argument about the "velar n" being a phoneme
>>> on its own. I guess you have a system like English West Midlanders
>>> do--where engma IS an allophone. For what t's worth, I've heard such
>>> systems from other Easterners--including a colleague of mine from
>>> Providence. I don't have it, though. Now, are you like Birmingham/
>>> Liverpool or like Stoke-on-Trent? I. e. do you have a /g/ in sings?
>>> I bet you don't.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: the three "n" s
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ---------
>>>>
>>>> I'd say there are 3 ways of say the sound "n", the most often
>>>> spoken sound of USA English. For each, the tongue forms a dam so
>>>> air is routed through the nose to make the "n" sound, but tongue
>>>> placement differs, as per example in these three words; winter,
>>>> finger, and danger.
>>>>
>>>> 1. the front n - Winter - (tongue tip contacts top gums)
>>>> 2. the back n - Finger - (back of tongue contacts the velum)
>>>> 3. the middle n - Danger - (whole tongue rises to palate)
>>>>
>>>> These "n"s are not noticably different in sound, and are allophones
>>>> of each other.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:35:36 -0700
>>>>> From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU
>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Arnold Zwicky
>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ----------
>>>>>
>>>>> from the Palo Alto Daily News of 21 March 2009, "Palo Alto shooting
>>>>> suspect still at large", by Diana Samuels, p. 3:
>>>>>
>>>>> Police said Gil-Fernandez claimed affiliation with the Norteno street
>>>>> gang, though that claim may have been mostly an act of show in Palo
>>>>> Alto, where the Norteno gang doesn't have much of a presence.
>>>>> .....
>>>>>
>>>>> that's "an act of show" 'a show, display, pretense'. a few more
>>>>> cites:
>>>>>
>>>>> I remembered my fiancé’s first time to pay me a visit at home. I
>>>>> was listening to Metallica. At that time, he thought I was just
>>>>> playing it to impress him. Later as we knew each other better, he
>>>>> realized that it was not an act of show but simply my choice of
>>>>> music.
>>>>> http://www.anintimateconversation.com/2009_02_01_archive.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Gabby,Lynette,Bree,Susan and Eddie are all part of a clan that has
>>>>> secrets lies and webs of drama they all live in such a perfect area
>>>>> yet knowing all the perfection is just an act of show!!!
>>>>> http://www.tv.com/desperate-housewives/show/24641/
>>>>> reviews.html&flag=1&pg_rev=4
>>>>>
>>>>> Col. Gianfranco Cavallo of the Carabinieri paramilitary police said
>>>>> the bomb appeared to be an "act of show" rather than an attack
>>>>> planned
>>>>> to make victims.
>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bomb-damages-cars-
>>>>> in-downtown-rome-672350.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually it was our state governor, a female democrat (Ks) that
>>>>> ordered them sent! I am sure that it was more of an act of show than
>>>>> anything else.
>>>>> http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/12/2537681-us-plans-
>>>>> for-mexico-border-violence
>>>>>
>>>>> there are also hits for "act of show-off"
>>>>>
>>>>> do you think if I show up with my guitar it won't be weired? won't
>>>>> people think of it as an act of show off?
>>>>> http://id.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080421191749AAV8jNh
>>>>> [Yahoo! Indonesia]
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, McLeod depicts Ganda Singh as a shallow person of
>>>>> pretentious nature whose ego was inflated by the mere receipt of a
>>>>> book from McLeod and as an act of show-off, he carried it round under
>>>>> his arm, with the title prominently displayed for all to see.
>>>>> http://sikhspectrum.com/052007/mcleod/ch5.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> They dabble in esoteric themes like mysticism, sexual freedom,
>>>>> death, the after-life and such things, as an act of show off.
>>>>> http://ia.rediff.com/movies/2008/dec/01review-pakal-nakshatrangal.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> unlike the "act of show" examples, these seem to be from various
>>>>> asian
>>>>> varieties of english.
>>>>>
>>>>> arnold
>>>>>
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