the three "n" s

Tue Mar 24 20:18:38 UTC 2009

It's not my accent I describe, it's the way talking dictionaries talk.  It's the way we talk.

I don't hear much difference between those "n" s discussed.  I'd wager you couldn't tell them apart with spectrograms or by hearing either.  Have you done this?

If spectrograms differed but people could not tell the difference, which would matter?

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
see truespel.com

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> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:10:13 -0400
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> We've already discussed at length what the vowel is in "sing." I
> suspect we may pronounce it with different vowels, so let's leave that
> issue. "Homorganic" does not mean that different sounds sound the
> same. The three nasals you talk about sound different and will show
> up differently on a spectrogram, which displays the acoustic facts.
> They are different, but in that position, before a syllable final
> consonant, we ignore the difference and we can't substitute one nasal
> for another before a syllable-final consonant. It has to be
> homorganic. That means a different nasal with each consonant but
> still no phonemic contrast before syllable-final consonants.
>
> "Homorganic" is used by linguists to describe to consonants that have
> the same place of articulation. In English this is generally limited
> to nasals, but in other languages it can apply to other consonant
> sequences as well. We don't generally use the term as you did in
> talking about vowels or vowel assimilation. So it may be that in your
> speech the vowel of "sing" assimilates in height to the /N/. That
> doesn't make the vowel homorganic to the nasal, because it doesn't
> take on the velar closure of the nasal.
>
> Herb
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Good one. Homorganic. Thefreedictionary.com defines it as Articulated in the same area of the vocal tract, as (t) and (n). A strictly linguistic term no less.
>>
>> Yet we know (n) can vary in place of articulation. Let's just call that a bad example. (n) next to (g) and (k) apply as well.
>>
>> By your saying "there is no phonemic contrast in nasals before a consonant" I take it you mean that the "n"s sound the same, such as for "winter, finger, danger"? I would agree. So the symbol /N/ is misleading, because the ~n sound doesn't change. It's really the "g" that's the changer. So the symbol would better be represented by /G/. But if the "g" is not spoken at all, why include it at all. Just leave it off.
>>
>> Regards homorganics, I hear the word "sing" and "finger" as being spoken by most everyone as having long e ~ee rather than short i ~i (as dictionaries prescribe). This makes homorganic sense because the ~ee is closer to the velar ~n than ~i is. It's homorganic. Basically this is what's happening. It's ~seeng rather than ~sing.
>>
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> see truespel.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:25:08 -0400
>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I think you're talking about the letter , not the phoneme /n/.
>>> Certainly before a consonant the nasal is homorganic to that
>>> consonant, which is what you're pointing out below. However, there's
>>> a little more involved. The tongue forms the same sort of "dam" in
>>> /t, ch, k, d, j, g/. The reason the airstream passes through the nose
>>> with /m, n, ng/ is that the velum is lowered, opening the passage
>>> through the nose, a separate gesture from what the tongue is doing.
>>> While you're right, as I just noted, that there is no phonemic
>>> contrast in nasals before a consonant, you could just as well include
>>> /m/ here, even thought it's represented orthographically by a
>>> different letter, . The priniciple is the same. The nasal is
>>> homorganic to a following consonant, in this case /p/ as in "lamp."
>>> You insist that there is an actually pronounced /g/ after the nasal in
>>> "sing," a fact that many of us have disputed and that Paul give some
>>> good dialect examples of below. Would you also say that there is a
>>> final /b/ in "lamb" or "comb"? Would these be different from "lam" or
>>> "jamb"? Both /b/ and /g/ got lost from speech in most dialects
>>> several hundred years ago.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: the three "n" s
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> I'd say there are 3 ways of say the sound "n", the most often spoken sound of USA English. For each, the tongue forms a dam so air is routed through the nose to make the "n" sound, but tongue placement differs, as per example in these three words; winter, finger, and danger.
>>>>
>>>> 1. the front n - Winter - (tongue tip contacts top gums)
>>>> 2. the back n - Finger - (back of tongue contacts the velum)
>>>> 3. the middle n - Danger - (whole tongue rises to palate)
>>>>
>>>> These "n"s are not noticably different in sound, and are allophones of each other.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:35:36 -0700
>>>>> From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU
>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Arnold Zwicky
>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> from the Palo Alto Daily News of 21 March 2009, "Palo Alto shooting
>>>>> suspect still at large", by Diana Samuels, p. 3:
>>>>>
>>>>> Police said Gil-Fernandez claimed affiliation with the Norteno street
>>>>> gang, though that claim may have been mostly an act of show in Palo
>>>>> Alto, where the Norteno gang doesn't have much of a presence.
>>>>> .....
>>>>>
>>>>> that's "an act of show" 'a show, display, pretense'. a few more cites:
>>>>>
>>>>> I remembered my fiancé’s first time to pay me a visit at home. I
>>>>> was listening to Metallica. At that time, he thought I was just
>>>>> playing it to impress him. Later as we knew each other better, he
>>>>> realized that it was not an act of show but simply my choice of music.
>>>>> http://www.anintimateconversation.com/2009_02_01_archive.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Gabby,Lynette,Bree,Susan and Eddie are all part of a clan that has
>>>>> secrets lies and webs of drama they all live in such a perfect area
>>>>> yet knowing all the perfection is just an act of show!!!
>>>>> http://www.tv.com/desperate-housewives/show/24641/reviews.html&flag=1&pg_rev=4
>>>>>
>>>>> Col. Gianfranco Cavallo of the Carabinieri paramilitary police said
>>>>> the bomb appeared to be an "act of show" rather than an attack planned
>>>>> to make victims.
>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bomb-damages-cars-in-downtown-rome-672350.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually it was our state governor, a female democrat (Ks) that
>>>>> ordered them sent! I am sure that it was more of an act of show than
>>>>> anything else.
>>>>> http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/12/2537681-us-plans-for-mexico-border-violence
>>>>>
>>>>> there are also hits for "act of show-off"
>>>>>
>>>>> do you think if I show up with my guitar it won't be weired? won't
>>>>> people think of it as an act of show off?
>>>>> http://id.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080421191749AAV8jNh
>>>>> [Yahoo! Indonesia]
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, McLeod depicts Ganda Singh as a shallow person of
>>>>> pretentious nature whose ego was inflated by the mere receipt of a
>>>>> book from McLeod and as an act of show-off, he carried it round under
>>>>> his arm, with the title prominently displayed for all to see.
>>>>> http://sikhspectrum.com/052007/mcleod/ch5.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> They dabble in esoteric themes like mysticism, sexual freedom,
>>>>> death, the after-life and such things, as an act of show off.
>>>>> http://ia.rediff.com/movies/2008/dec/01review-pakal-nakshatrangal.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> unlike the "act of show" examples, these seem to be from various asian
>>>>> varieties of english.
>>>>>
>>>>> arnold
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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