the three "n" s

Tue Mar 24 21:53:58 UTC 2009

If I stop at the "n" in sing, and don't pull the tongue off the velum to make a ~g - just freeze it there as the ~n trails off, I would not be saying the "g" at all so I should get the word "sin" according to all the dictionaries.  Instead I get closer to "seen".  That is because the "n" in "sing" is velar and thus the i ahead of it becomes spoken as a near homorganic velar, which is ~ee.

Instead for the word sin, the "n" is alveolar, not velar, and thus the "i" in "sin" is short i ~i to get to the ~n.  The tongue for ~i is well off the velum.  Thus you have ~sin and ~seeng.

I think the "n" in "seen" is neither an alveolar nor velar but a palatial "n".  The tongue rises flat up.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
see truespel.com

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> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:58:31 -0400
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You can also end an utterance just by stopping phonation, if the final
> segment is voiced, or just by stopping anyway. The tongue does not
> have to be lowered and frequently is not. So it's not the case that
> the tongue will always lower at the end of "sing."
>
> Herb
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The "n" sounds certainly are not separate phonemes as you say below.
>>
>> The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
>> different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob."
>>
>>
>>> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
>>> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
>>> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
>>> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?
>>
>> The tongue always comes off the velum for the ending of "sing" which does make a slight ~g sound. This is the basic sound made for a ~g in quickly flowing speech - a velar pull-off. If the tongue doesn't come off the velum, the air dam is still in place and the nasal is still going. You have zero "~g".
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>> see truespel.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:09:17 -0400
>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
>>> different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob." (I
>>> realize that for those of us without the caught/cot merger "daub" has
>>> the vowel of "caught.") The reason they seem not to contrast is that
>>> the contrast is not phonemic before a consonant because nasals are
>>> always homorganic (same place of articulation) to a following
>>> syllable-final consonant. But the differences are physically real.
>>>
>>> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
>>> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
>>> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
>>> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps I should say; "three ways of making the sound ~n". I don't think the three n sounds (in winter,finger,danger) are qualitatively different very much, since airflow is rerouted through the nose in each case. The ~n sound is nasal and doesn't matter much what the tongue or mouth does.
>>>>
>>>> I've got a touch of a "g" in "sing", made by the tongue going down off the velum (when saying the word in isolation). But for "sing a song" the "g" becomes fully formed leading the vowel "a". Allophones.
>>>>
>>>> Note: I can't say "sing" without pronouncing the vowel as "long e" ~ee before the "ng" or "nk" in the same syllable. I find this typical of UK or USA English even though dictionaries prescribe short i.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:48:30 -0400
>>>>> From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
>>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Paul Johnston
>>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean the n *sounds*--even your description says that. I won't
>>>>> reprise everyone else's argument about the "velar n" being a phoneme
>>>>> on its own. I guess you have a system like English West Midlanders
>>>>> do--where engma IS an allophone. For what t's worth, I've heard such
>>>>> systems from other Easterners--including a colleague of mine from
>>>>> Providence. I don't have it, though. Now, are you like Birmingham/
>>>>> Liverpool or like Stoke-on-Trent? I. e. do you have a /g/ in sings?
>>>>> I bet you don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>> Subject: the three "n" s
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd say there are 3 ways of say the sound "n", the most often
>>>>>> spoken sound of USA English. For each, the tongue forms a dam so
>>>>>> air is routed through the nose to make the "n" sound, but tongue
>>>>>> placement differs, as per example in these three words; winter,
>>>>>> finger, and danger.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. the front n - Winter - (tongue tip contacts top gums)
>>>>>> 2. the back n - Finger - (back of tongue contacts the velum)
>>>>>> 3. the middle n - Danger - (whole tongue rises to palate)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These "n"s are not noticably different in sound, and are allophones
>>>>>> of each other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:35:36 -0700
>>>>>>> From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU
>>>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Arnold Zwicky
>>>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ----------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from the Palo Alto Daily News of 21 March 2009, "Palo Alto shooting
>>>>>>> suspect still at large", by Diana Samuels, p. 3:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Police said Gil-Fernandez claimed affiliation with the Norteno street
>>>>>>> gang, though that claim may have been mostly an act of show in Palo
>>>>>>> Alto, where the Norteno gang doesn't have much of a presence.
>>>>>>> .....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that's "an act of show" 'a show, display, pretense'. a few more
>>>>>>> cites:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remembered my fiancé’s first time to pay me a visit at home. I
>>>>>>> was listening to Metallica. At that time, he thought I was just
>>>>>>> playing it to impress him. Later as we knew each other better, he
>>>>>>> realized that it was not an act of show but simply my choice of
>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>> http://www.anintimateconversation.com/2009_02_01_archive.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gabby,Lynette,Bree,Susan and Eddie are all part of a clan that has
>>>>>>> secrets lies and webs of drama they all live in such a perfect area
>>>>>>> yet knowing all the perfection is just an act of show!!!
>>>>>>> http://www.tv.com/desperate-housewives/show/24641/
>>>>>>> reviews.html&flag=1&pg_rev=4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Col. Gianfranco Cavallo of the Carabinieri paramilitary police said
>>>>>>> the bomb appeared to be an "act of show" rather than an attack
>>>>>>> planned
>>>>>>> to make victims.
>>>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bomb-damages-cars-
>>>>>>> in-downtown-rome-672350.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually it was our state governor, a female democrat (Ks) that
>>>>>>> ordered them sent! I am sure that it was more of an act of show than
>>>>>>> anything else.
>>>>>>> http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/12/2537681-us-plans-
>>>>>>> for-mexico-border-violence
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there are also hits for "act of show-off"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> do you think if I show up with my guitar it won't be weired? won't
>>>>>>> people think of it as an act of show off?
>>>>>>> http://id.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080421191749AAV8jNh
>>>>>>> [Yahoo! Indonesia]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, McLeod depicts Ganda Singh as a shallow person of
>>>>>>> pretentious nature whose ego was inflated by the mere receipt of a
>>>>>>> book from McLeod and as an act of show-off, he carried it round under
>>>>>>> his arm, with the title prominently displayed for all to see.
>>>>>>> http://sikhspectrum.com/052007/mcleod/ch5.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They dabble in esoteric themes like mysticism, sexual freedom,
>>>>>>> death, the after-life and such things, as an act of show off.
>>>>>>> http://ia.rediff.com/movies/2008/dec/01review-pakal-nakshatrangal.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> unlike the "act of show" examples, these seem to be from various
>>>>>>> asian
>>>>>>> varieties of english.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> arnold
>>>>>>>
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