the three "n" s

Wed Mar 25 02:42:14 UTC 2009

Tom,

It may be roomy, but it's hardly palatial, not even palatal.  The
closest we have to a palatal nasal in English is the nasal in
"injure," and there it's palato-alveolar, not palatal.  You speak a
very strange English is the nasal in "sing" starts out alveolar and
then becomes velar.  I have not heard that from any speaker of
English.  I think you're confusing letters and sounds here.

Herb

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: the three "n" s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If I stop at the "n" in sing, and don't pull the tongue off the velum to make a ~g - just freeze it there as the ~n trails off, I would not be saying the "g" at all so I should get the word "sin" according to all the dictionaries.  Instead I get closer to "seen".  That is because the "n" in "sing" is velar and thus the i ahead of it becomes spoken as a near homorganic velar, which is ~ee.
>
> Instead for the word sin, the "n" is alveolar, not velar, and thus the "i" in "sin" is short i ~i to get to the ~n.  The tongue for ~i is well off the velum.  Thus you have ~sin and ~seeng.
>
> I think the "n" in "seen" is neither an alveolar nor velar but a palatial "n".  The tongue rises flat up.
>
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:58:31 -0400
>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> You can also end an utterance just by stopping phonation, if the final
>> segment is voiced, or just by stopping anyway. The tongue does not
>> have to be lowered and frequently is not. So it's not the case that
>> the tongue will always lower at the end of "sing."
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The "n" sounds certainly are not separate phonemes as you say below.
>>>
>>> The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
>>> different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob."
>>>
>>>
>>>> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
>>>> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
>>>> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
>>>> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?
>>>
>>> The tongue always comes off the velum for the ending of "sing" which does make a slight ~g sound. This is the basic sound made for a ~g in quickly flowing speech - a velar pull-off. If the tongue doesn't come off the velum, the air dam is still in place and the nasal is still going. You have zero "~g".
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>> see truespel.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:09:17 -0400
>>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
>>>> different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob." (I
>>>> realize that for those of us without the caught/cot merger "daub" has
>>>> the vowel of "caught.") The reason they seem not to contrast is that
>>>> the contrast is not phonemic before a consonant because nasals are
>>>> always homorganic (same place of articulation) to a following
>>>> syllable-final consonant. But the differences are physically real.
>>>>
>>>> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
>>>> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
>>>> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
>>>> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I should say; "three ways of making the sound ~n". I don't think the three n sounds (in winter,finger,danger) are qualitatively different very much, since airflow is rerouted through the nose in each case. The ~n sound is nasal and doesn't matter much what the tongue or mouth does.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got a touch of a "g" in "sing", made by the tongue going down off the velum (when saying the word in isolation). But for "sing a song" the "g" becomes fully formed leading the vowel "a". Allophones.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: I can't say "sing" without pronouncing the vowel as "long e" ~ee before the "ng" or "nk" in the same syllable. I find this typical of UK or USA English even though dictionaries prescribe short i.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:48:30 -0400
>>>>>> From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
>>>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Paul Johnston
>>>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You mean the n *sounds*--even your description says that. I won't
>>>>>> reprise everyone else's argument about the "velar n" being a phoneme
>>>>>> on its own. I guess you have a system like English West Midlanders
>>>>>> do--where engma IS an allophone. For what t's worth, I've heard such
>>>>>> systems from other Easterners--including a colleague of mine from
>>>>>> Providence. I don't have it, though. Now, are you like Birmingham/
>>>>>> Liverpool or like Stoke-on-Trent? I. e. do you have a /g/ in sings?
>>>>>> I bet you don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>> Subject: the three "n" s
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd say there are 3 ways of say the sound "n", the most often
>>>>>>> spoken sound of USA English. For each, the tongue forms a dam so
>>>>>>> air is routed through the nose to make the "n" sound, but tongue
>>>>>>> placement differs, as per example in these three words; winter,
>>>>>>> finger, and danger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. the front n - Winter - (tongue tip contacts top gums)
>>>>>>> 2. the back n - Finger - (back of tongue contacts the velum)
>>>>>>> 3. the middle n - Danger - (whole tongue rises to palate)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These "n"s are not noticably different in sound, and are allophones
>>>>>>> of each other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:35:36 -0700
>>>>>>>> From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU
>>>>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: Arnold Zwicky
>>>>>>>> Subject: act of show
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> ----------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from the Palo Alto Daily News of 21 March 2009, "Palo Alto shooting
>>>>>>>> suspect still at large", by Diana Samuels, p. 3:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Police said Gil-Fernandez claimed affiliation with the Norteno street
>>>>>>>> gang, though that claim may have been mostly an act of show in Palo
>>>>>>>> Alto, where the Norteno gang doesn't have much of a presence.
>>>>>>>> .....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that's "an act of show" 'a show, display, pretense'. a few more
>>>>>>>> cites:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I remembered my fiancé’s first time to pay me a visit at home. I
>>>>>>>> was listening to Metallica. At that time, he thought I was just
>>>>>>>> playing it to impress him. Later as we knew each other better, he
>>>>>>>> realized that it was not an act of show but simply my choice of
>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>> http://www.anintimateconversation.com/2009_02_01_archive.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gabby,Lynette,Bree,Susan and Eddie are all part of a clan that has
>>>>>>>> secrets lies and webs of drama they all live in such a perfect area
>>>>>>>> yet knowing all the perfection is just an act of show!!!
>>>>>>>> http://www.tv.com/desperate-housewives/show/24641/
>>>>>>>> reviews.html&flag=1&pg_rev=4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Col. Gianfranco Cavallo of the Carabinieri paramilitary police said
>>>>>>>> the bomb appeared to be an "act of show" rather than an attack
>>>>>>>> planned
>>>>>>>> to make victims.
>>>>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bomb-damages-cars-
>>>>>>>> in-downtown-rome-672350.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually it was our state governor, a female democrat (Ks) that
>>>>>>>> ordered them sent! I am sure that it was more of an act of show than
>>>>>>>> anything else.
>>>>>>>> http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/12/2537681-us-plans-
>>>>>>>> for-mexico-border-violence
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there are also hits for "act of show-off"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> do you think if I show up with my guitar it won't be weired? won't
>>>>>>>> people think of it as an act of show off?
>>>>>>>> http://id.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080421191749AAV8jNh
>>>>>>>> [Yahoo! Indonesia]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, McLeod depicts Ganda Singh as a shallow person of
>>>>>>>> pretentious nature whose ego was inflated by the mere receipt of a
>>>>>>>> book from McLeod and as an act of show-off, he carried it round under
>>>>>>>> his arm, with the title prominently displayed for all to see.
>>>>>>>> http://sikhspectrum.com/052007/mcleod/ch5.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They dabble in esoteric themes like mysticism, sexual freedom,
>>>>>>>> death, the after-life and such things, as an act of show off.
>>>>>>>> http://ia.rediff.com/movies/2008/dec/01review-pakal-nakshatrangal.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> unlike the "act of show" examples, these seem to be from various
>>>>>>>> asian
>>>>>>>> varieties of english.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> arnold
>>>>>>>>
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