the three "n" s

Wed Mar 25 09:25:01 UTC 2009

Right.  I'm hearing most folks (and talking dictionaries) say ~seeng versus ~sing for the word "sing".  The "s" is alveolar, then for the "i" the tongue does not stay in the same place as for "sin".  Instead, to make a short i, the tongue raises to prepare for "n" which is velar because the tongue is preparing for "g" which is velar.  Thus the raised tongue goes to ~ee rather than ~i, for ~seeng instead of ~sing.

For the word "seen" my tongue goes kinda flat up, palatal, for making the air dam to divert air to the nose for ~n.  This is because for ~ee the tongue is raised for starters, then to get to the alveolar "n" the whole tongue stays raised and goes up to the palate rather than just the tip folding up to the alveolar.  This "raise up" includes touching the alveolar (top gums all the way around front and side) all the way back to the near velar for making the air dam to divert air to the nose for the nasal ~n sound.

I think the tongue for the "n" in "injure" is more alveolar and less palatized than for "seen" or "scenic".  A leading ~ee has the tongue raised for starters before the "n" and transitions into it.  I can see where the tongue could "think ahead" and raise from ~i to get to the ~j such that the ~n is palatized.  But no biggie.  Both allophones.  However, I think the velar "n" is an allophone as well and doen't need a special symbol.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ 
see truespel.com

> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:42:14 -0400
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> 
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tom,
> 
> It may be roomy, but it's hardly palatial, not even palatal. The
> closest we have to a palatal nasal in English is the nasal in
> "injure," and there it's palato-alveolar, not palatal. You speak a
> very strange English is the nasal in "sing" starts out alveolar and
> then becomes velar. I have not heard that from any speaker of
> English. I think you're confusing letters and sounds here.
> 
> Herb
> 
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > If I stop at the "n" in sing, and don't pull the tongue off the velum to make a ~g - just freeze it there as the ~n trails off, I would not be saying the "g" at all so I should get the word "sin" according to all the dictionaries. Instead I get closer to "seen". That is because the "n" in "sing" is velar and thus the i ahead of it becomes spoken as a near homorganic velar, which is ~ee.
> >
> > Instead for the word sin, the "n" is alveolar, not velar, and thus the "i" in "sin" is short i ~i to get to the ~n. The tongue for ~i is well off the velum. Thus you have ~sin and ~seeng.
> >
> > I think the "n" in "seen" is neither an alveolar nor velar but a palatial "n". The tongue rises flat up.
> >
> >
> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> > see truespel.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:58:31 -0400
> >> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> >> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> >> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> You can also end an utterance just by stopping phonation, if the final
> >> segment is voiced, or just by stopping anyway. The tongue does not
> >> have to be lowered and frequently is not. So it's not the case that
> >> the tongue will always lower at the end of "sing."
> >>
> >> Herb
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> The "n" sounds certainly are not separate phonemes as you say below.
> >>>
> >>> The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
> >>> different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
> >>>> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
> >>>> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
> >>>> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?
> >>>
> >>> The tongue always comes off the velum for the ending of "sing" which does make a slight ~g sound. This is the basic sound made for a ~g in quickly flowing speech - a velar pull-off. If the tongue doesn't come off the velum, the air dam is still in place and the nasal is still going. You have zero "~g".
> >>>
> >>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>> see truespel.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------------
> >>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:09:17 -0400
> >>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> >>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> >>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> The three sounds spelled in these words are as qualitatively
> >>>> different as /d/, /j/, and /g/ as in "daub," "job," and "gob." (I
> >>>> realize that for those of us without the caught/cot merger "daub" has
> >>>> the vowel of "caught.") The reason they seem not to contrast is that
> >>>> the contrast is not phonemic before a consonant because nasals are
> >>>> always homorganic (same place of articulation) to a following
> >>>> syllable-final consonant. But the differences are physically real.
> >>>>
> >>>> When you say "sing" in isolation, does the back of your tongue always
> >>>> drop down from the velum? Do you ever say it without opening the
> >>>> closure between tongue and velum, just allowing the voicing to stop?
> >>>> If you do, in that case do you still hear a final /g/?
> >>>>
> >>>> Herb
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps I should say; "three ways of making the sound ~n". I don't think the three n sounds (in winter,finger,danger) are qualitatively different very much, since airflow is rerouted through the nose in each case. The ~n sound is nasal and doesn't matter much what the tongue or mouth does.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've got a touch of a "g" in "sing", made by the tongue going down off the velum (when saying the word in isolation). But for "sing a song" the "g" becomes fully formed leading the vowel "a". Allophones.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Note: I can't say "sing" without pronouncing the vowel as "long e" ~ee before the "ng" or "nk" in the same syllable. I find this typical of UK or USA English even though dictionaries prescribe short i.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>>>> see truespel.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----------------------------------------
> >>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:48:30 -0400
> >>>>>> From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>>> Poster: Paul Johnston
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: the three "n" s
> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You mean the n *sounds*--even your description says that. I won't
> >>>>>> reprise everyone else's argument about the "velar n" being a phoneme
> >>>>>> on its own. I guess you have a system like English West Midlanders
> >>>>>> do--where engma IS an allophone. For what t's worth, I've heard such
> >>>>>> systems from other Easterners--including a colleague of mine from
> >>>>>> Providence. I don't have it, though. Now, are you like Birmingham/
> >>>>>> Liverpool or like Stoke-on-Trent? I. e. do you have a /g/ in sings?
> >>>>>> I bet you don't.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >>>>>>> Subject: the three "n" s
> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> ---------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd say there are 3 ways of say the sound "n", the most often
> >>>>>>> spoken sound of USA English. For each, the tongue forms a dam so
> >>>>>>> air is routed through the nose to make the "n" sound, but tongue
> >>>>>>> placement differs, as per example in these three words; winter,
> >>>>>>> finger, and danger.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. the front n - Winter - (tongue tip contacts top gums)
> >>>>>>> 2. the back n - Finger - (back of tongue contacts the velum)
> >>>>>>> 3. the middle n - Danger - (whole tongue rises to palate)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> These "n"s are not noticably different in sound, and are allophones
> >>>>>>> of each other.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>>>>>> see truespel.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:35:36 -0700
> >>>>>>>> From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU
> >>>>>>>> Subject: act of show
> >>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>>>>> Poster: Arnold Zwicky
> >>>>>>>> Subject: act of show
> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> ----------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> from the Palo Alto Daily News of 21 March 2009, "Palo Alto shooting
> >>>>>>>> suspect still at large", by Diana Samuels, p. 3:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Police said Gil-Fernandez claimed affiliation with the Norteno street
> >>>>>>>> gang, though that claim may have been mostly an act of show in Palo
> >>>>>>>> Alto, where the Norteno gang doesn't have much of a presence.
> >>>>>>>> .....
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> that's "an act of show" 'a show, display, pretense'. a few more
> >>>>>>>> cites:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I remembered my fianc้’s first time to pay me a visit at home. I
> >>>>>>>> was listening to Metallica. At that time, he thought I was just
> >>>>>>>> playing it to impress him. Later as we knew each other better, he
> >>>>>>>> realized that it was not an act of show but simply my choice of
> >>>>>>>> music.
> >>>>>>>> http://www.anintimateconversation.com/2009_02_01_archive.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Gabby,Lynette,Bree,Susan and Eddie are all part of a clan that has
> >>>>>>>> secrets lies and webs of drama they all live in such a perfect area
> >>>>>>>> yet knowing all the perfection is just an act of show!!!
> >>>>>>>> http://www.tv.com/desperate-housewives/show/24641/
> >>>>>>>> reviews.html&flag=1&pg_rev=4
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Col. Gianfranco Cavallo of the Carabinieri paramilitary police said
> >>>>>>>> the bomb appeared to be an "act of show" rather than an attack
> >>>>>>>> planned
> >>>>>>>> to make victims.
> >>>>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bomb-damages-cars-
> >>>>>>>> in-downtown-rome-672350.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Actually it was our state governor, a female democrat (Ks) that
> >>>>>>>> ordered them sent! I am sure that it was more of an act of show than
> >>>>>>>> anything else.
> >>>>>>>> http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/12/2537681-us-plans-
> >>>>>>>> for-mexico-border-violence
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> there are also hits for "act of show-off"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> do you think if I show up with my guitar it won't be weired? won't
> >>>>>>>> people think of it as an act of show off?
> >>>>>>>> http://id.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080421191749AAV8jNh
> >>>>>>>> [Yahoo! Indonesia]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Again, McLeod depicts Ganda Singh as a shallow person of
> >>>>>>>> pretentious nature whose ego was inflated by the mere receipt of a
> >>>>>>>> book from McLeod and as an act of show-off, he carried it round under
> >>>>>>>> his arm, with the title prominently displayed for all to see.
> >>>>>>>> http://sikhspectrum.com/052007/mcleod/ch5.htm
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> They dabble in esoteric themes like mysticism, sexual freedom,
> >>>>>>>> death, the after-life and such things, as an act of show off.
> >>>>>>>> http://ia.rediff.com/movies/2008/dec/01review-pakal-nakshatrangal.htm
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> unlike the "act of show" examples, these seem to be from various
> >>>>>>>> asian
> >>>>>>>> varieties of english.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> arnold
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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