Hollywood and "SIR!"

[Wilson Gray]

Apparently, since the '50's, new imagination has replaced former fact.
What you describe as typical of the '80's has always been, IIRC, true
in the movies since I became old enough to understand them and, when I
enlisted, I fully expected things to be as you describe. But, back in
my day, "Attention! was never used by anyone, unless the troops were
"under cover," meaning "outdoors and, therefore, wearing headgear."er
cover," and then never by officers, only by NCO's. Indoors, the
command was always "At ease!", shouted by the NCOIC or the first other
GI to notice the officer, and the officer's response was always,
"Carry on!"

Further differences were that "At ease!", when shouted by an NCO,
could also mean "Silence!", "Keep still!", and such like. And an
officer gaining the attention of EM directly and not through the
mediation of an NCO? Amazing! What happened during regimental parades
- the largest formation that I ever had the misfortune to have to
participate in? In my day, the colonel commanding the regiment shouted
"Regiment!" At this point, the regiment shifted from the position of
attention to that of "parade rest." This command was echoed in turn
throughout the regiment by lower-ranking commanders: "Battalion!"
"Company!" "Platoon!" When this came to an end, the colonel shouted,
"Tinch-HUT!" At which point, the regiment, which had once already been
standing at attention, shifted back to attention from parade rest.
Once the troops were back at attention, the colonel shouted, "Pass!
In! Review!" But this command was meant not for the troops, but for
those commanding them. The lieutenant-commanders, majors, captains,
lieutenants, etc. then proceeded to pass the relevant orders down
through the ranks to the NCO's - once defined as "the ones who tell
the telling to the ones who do the doing" - who would then proceed to
move the troops out.

I never heard an officer say anything directly to the troops.
"Sergeant, call the men to attention!" "Sergeant, have the men stand
at ease." "Sergeant, have that man appear before me!" Unless, of
course, the EM, as required, said, "Good day, sir!" as he rendered a
hand salute. In such a case, the officer would reply, "Good day,
soldier" as he returned the salute.

"Fall in" carried the same meaning as "Attention!" and "Fall out!"
completely replaced "Dismissed!" "Fall out!" could also mean, "Get the
hell out of the barracks and form up in your usual ranks!" That is,
"Fall in!" was included under fall out "Fall out!" under some
circumstances.

I heard "Dismissed!' on rare occasions. I heard "As you were!" used
only as a kind of military "My bad!" only by NCO's.

You know, back in my day, about the only officers that an EM ever came
into direct contact with with any regularity were his own CO and XO,
at least in non-combat units like the old Security Agency and even
then only during weekly inspections.

-Wilson
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 3:03 AM, Dave Wilton <dave at wilton.net> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Hollywood and "SIR!"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Things were a bit different in the 1980s.
>
> The command was always "Attention!" (or "Tinch-HUT," etc.) when an officer
> approached, indoors or outdoors. The officer would reply with "at ease" if
> he or she wanted to speak to the soldiers, or "carry on" or "as you were"
> (the phrase was indeed used just this way) if he or she were just walking
> past. If entering a building, especially a barracks, often the officer would
> call out "as you were" preemptively while walking through the door so that
> soldiers wouldn't be jumping to attention time and time again. And often
> there was a standing rule in office environments not call everyone to
> attention every time an officer walked into the building--in our
> headquarters, for instance, only the battalion commander or someone senior
> to him would bring people to attention.
>
> A variation for soldiers at work was that only the senior NCO came to
> attention and saluted the approaching officer. The others would keep on
> working unless the officer addressed them individually, in which case the
> soldier would come to attention and reply.
>
> And all of this was just in garrison. (If in the field, all this went by the
> wayside. There is no coming to attention or saluting in the field. Saluting
> is a good way to get your officers killed by snipers, and popping to
> attention can get anyone killed.)
>
> Another thing that movies get wrong is that "at ease" is not the same as
> "carry on." The command "at ease" means the soldiers are to stand silently
> and look the officer or NCO, but no specific posture is required. If in
> formation, the soldiers may move, but the right foot must stay planted in
> the same position. "Carry on" or "as you were" means exactly that--go back
> to what you were doing.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> Wilson Gray
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:03 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Hollywood and "SIR!"
>
> I'm familiar with this "Sir! Yes SIR!" bit only from movies and books
> about the Marine Corps. From books, but not necessariliy from movies,
> I've also gotten the impression that, in the Corps, private soldiers
> must salute NCO's as well as warranted and commissioned officers. For
> example, I either read or heard in a movie that a guard's first
> general order is:
>
> "To walk my post from flank to flank and _salute everyone above my rank_!"
>
> Presumably, this was meant as a joke, the actual general order being:
>
> "To take charge of this post and all military property in view!"
>
> But, in the Army, it was made quite clear that you did not "render a
> hand-salute" to NCO's.
>
> As for shouting, outside of the typical shouting of orders *by*
> officers and NCO's, an EM who was first to see an officer shouted only
> "At ease!" and then only when an officer unexpectedly appeared, as in
> the barracks, or suddenly appeared, as in the mess hall. The officer
> shouted in reply, "Carry on!" If the EM were outdoors, the shout was
> "Tinch-HUT" or some phonetic variant thereof by the first EM to make
> eye-contact with the officer. (To the extent possible, EM outdoors,
> even if they were NCO's, always pretended to be unaware of the
> presence of an officer. Unless, of course, the officer would be
> discommoded thereby. Officers carrying babies or bags of groceries
> were always saluted, it being the case that the officer receiving the
> salute was forced by custom and by law to come to attention himself
> and return the salute, a real pain in the ass, if the officer had to
> put a baby or a couple of 50-lb. grocery bags on the ground in order
> to do this.)  Those EM facing the officer would "assume the position
> of attention and render a hand-salute," which he would return. Other
> EM not facing the officer would merely assume the position. To these,
> the officer would say, using command voice, "Carry on!"
>
> (Oddly enough, whenever I saw this happen, it struck me as pretty
> cool, because it was so robotic. Strange head on my part, I guess.)
>
> The "As you were!" commonly heard in movies in place of "Carry on!"
> was used only when someone in charge caught himself making a mistake:
>
> "This being the American Name - as you were! - the American *Dialect*
> Society listserv ..."
>
> Anyway, "Sir! Yes SIR" is un-Army. A simple "Yessir" or even "Okay,
> sir", if the officer is cool with that, is sufficient.
>
> -Wilson
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Hollywood and "SIR!"
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>>
>> Some years ago  I began to notice that movies about the Vietnam War were
>> starting to represent enlisted troops in the field as addressing or
>> responding to commissioned officers with the barked word "SIR!"  This was
>> notably the case in _We Were Soldiers_ (2002), set in 1965.
>>
>> I don't recall _ever_ hearing this ultra-hearty intonation in earlier
> films
>> about World War II, Korea, or even Vietnam.
>> Nor can I recall reading any comment to the effect that it was current. In
>> basic training, maybe, or at West Point.  But elsewhere?
>>
>> My suspicion is that this "SIR! Yes, SIR!" is a latter-day (circa
>> 1990?) affectation, though I wouldn't be surprised to find that movies
> have
>> reinforced it.  ("HOO-ah!" and "OO-rah!" both seem to post-date Vietnam as
>> well: they were discussed here a few years ago.)
>>
>> Wilson, Bill, Jim, Dave, et al. What say you?
>>
>>
>> JL
>>
>>
>> --
>> "There You Go Again...Using Reason on the Planet of the Duck-Billed
>> Platypus"
>>
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>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -Wilson
> ---
> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"--a strange complaint to
> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> -Mark Twain
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



--
-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
–Mark Twain

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org