:-) mostly -- McWhorter on "standard English"

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Sun Jan 17 01:31:06 UTC 2010 

>>One can only admire writing like that....

Opinions vary.  As for Pagels's overall clarity, though, I applaud it.

JL


On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.com> wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: :-) mostly -- McWhorter on "standard English"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can accept that, as long as I don't have to move much beyond that
> atom of Niels Bohr.  Some years ago the late physicist Heinz Pagels
> titled consecutive chapters of The Cosmic Code "The Atom of Niels
> Bohr" and "The Atom of Bohr Kneels."  One can only admire writing like
> that, and appreciate the clarity wiht which he wrote about very
> complex topics for a general audience.
>
> Herb
>
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter
>  <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: :-) mostly -- McWhorter on "standard English"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Technical terms are useful for specialists, but the specialist voice
> > (whoever ir may belong to) on NPR has less than two minutes to make a
> point
> > which, to judge from the attention the Reid story has received, is
> > extraordinarily subtle.  Nor is it amenable to empirical proof. ("You
> can't
> > prove it either way. It's subjective.")
> >
> > Speaking personally, if I have to be dumbed down to once in a while so I
> can
> > actually understand something starnge and complicated (rather than just
> be
> > reminded I didn't understand in the first place) - well, then, dumb it
> down.
> >
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: :-) mostly -- McWhorter on "standard English"
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> While I agree that a general audience would have trouble with some of
> >> our jargon, we have these terms and make these distinctions for good
> >> reasons.  The public will understand better what we do if we use some
> >> of these terms and explain them than if we try to talk around them.  I
> >> haven't studied chemistry since high school, but I appreciate it that
> >> chemists talk about valence rather than about "ways that atoms fit
> >> together."  I like it that other specialists don't dumb things down
> >> for me more than necessary.
> >>
> >> Herb
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> >> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> > Subject:      Re: :-) mostly -- McWhorter on "standard English"
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > For the average NPR listener, still anxious about split infinitives, I
> >> think
> >> > even "register" is opaque. It always makes me think of cash registers,
> >> > relevance zilch.
> >> >
> >> > How about "context," "purpose," "setting," or the like. These can be
> >> > elaborated quickly and easily.
> >> >
> >> > JL
> >> > On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:41 PM, Laurence Horn <
> laurence.horn at yale.edu
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >> -----------------------
> >> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >> >> Subject:      Re: :-) mostly -- McWhorter on "standard English"
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> At 9:01 PM -0500 1/15/10, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> >> >> >>Register?  Not nearly as clear as "dialect" =20
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
> >> >> >>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Perhaps not so clear, but more appropriate in this context.
> >> >>
> >> >> Oops, sorry Robin.  I should have scrolled down in my mailer to see
> >> >> that you pre-empted my response.
> >> >>
> >> >> LH
> >> >>
> >> >> >"In linguistics, a register is a variety of a language used for a
> >> >> particular
> >> >> >purpose or in a particular social setting. For example, an English
> >> speaker
> >> >> >may adhere more closely to prescribed grammar, pronounce words
> ending
> >> >> >in -ing with a velar nasal instead of an alveolar nasal (e.g.
> >> "walking",
> >> >> not
> >> >> >"walkin'"), choose more formal words (e.g. train vs. choo-choo,
> sodium
> >> >> >chloride vs. salt, child vs. kid, etc.), and refrain from using the
> >> word
> >> >> >ain't when speaking in a formal setting, but the same person could
> >> violate
> >> >> >all of these prescriptions in an informal setting."
> >> >> >[WIKI]
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Whereas dialect:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"The term dialect (from the Greek word _dialektos_) is used in two
> >> >> >distinct ways, even by scholars of language. One usage refers to a
> >> variety
> >> >> >of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the
> >> >> language's
> >> >> >speakers. The term is applied most often to regional speech
> patterns,
> >> but
> >> >> a
> >> >> >dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class.
> >> <...>
> >> >> >The other usage refers to a language socially subordinate to a
> regional
> >> or
> >> >> >national standard language, often historically cognate to the
> standard,
> >> >> but
> >> >> >not a variety of it or in any other sense derived from it."
> >> >> >[WIKI]
> >> >> >
> >> >> >They are quite distinct terms, at least in my idiolect.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Robin Hamilton
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> >>>Poster: Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM>
> >> >> >>>Subject: Re: :-) mostly -- McWhorter on "standard English"
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>  > Well=2C maybe we need to start putting "dialect" in after
> >> "Standard
> >> >> >>>>  English". I think I might start putting "Standard American
> Written
> >> >> >>>>  English dialect" in my composition syllabus to emphasize its
> >> >> >>>>  linguistic parity with Appalachian dialects=2C Southern
> >> dialects=2C
> >> >> >>>>  etc=
> >> >> >>.
> >> >> >>>  >
> >> >> >>>>  ---Amy West
> >> >> >>>=20
> >> >> >>>I'd concur with this=2C Amy=2C but reword as "Standard American
> >> Written
> >> >> >>>E=
> >> >> >>nglish
> >> >> >>>Register."
> >> >> >>>=20
> >> >> >>>The wording of the syllabus description would=2C of course=2C be
> >> >> >>>self-referential=2C being written in SAWER.
> >> >> >>>=20
> >> >> >>>Robin Hamilton
> >> >> >>>=20
> >> >> >
> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >> >
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> >> >
> >>
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> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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