Freud and chimney sweeping
Jonathan Lighter
wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Mon Jul 19 20:07:33 UTC 2010
In the abridged Princeton U.P. ed. (1994), p. 127.
JL
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject: Re: Freud and chimney sweeping
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 7/19/2010 02:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >Freud to Jung, Nov. 21, 1909:
> >
> >"It has also been explained to me why a chimney sweep is regarded as a
> good
> >omen: chimney sweeping is an action symbolic of coitus."
>
> Great. Will I find this in
>
> _The Freud/Jung letters : the correspondence between Sigmund Freud
> and C.G. Jung_ / edited by William McGuire ; translated by Ralph
> Manheim and R.F.C. Hull. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University
> Press, 1988; reprinted from Princeton, N.J. : Princeton University Press,
> 1974?
>
> Joel
>
>
> >See, a *male* puts himself into a *dark channel-like place*. The
> testicular
> >cancer would be, to the unconscious, an ironic "punishment" for
> symbolically
> >"doing it."
> >
> >Sense or SWAG? Seriously, you gotta wonder.
> >
> >JL
> >
> >On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Charles C Doyle <cdoyle at uga.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: Charles C Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: "get ones ashes hauled", and sweeping
> ones
> > > (or
> > > someones) chimney
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > In any case, wouldn't it be the building owner--not the chimny
> sweep--who
> > > "got his ashes hauled" (in contrast to the young boy who hauled those
> > > ashes)?
> > >
> > > --Charlie
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> > > Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 11:42 AM
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Even though chimney sweeps commonly died, at an early age, of
> testicular
> > > cancer . . . .
> > >
> > > --Charlie
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> > > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 11:37 AM
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > "Get your ashes hauled" looks far more recent. The sweepers must
> already
> > > have had the reputation and Freud can tell you why.
> > >
> > > If it wasn't deserved.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > Subject: "get ones ashes hauled", and sweeping ones (or
> someones)
> > > > chimney
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > As a by-product of investigation into why chimney sweeps were
> > > > associated in the 18th century with sexual activity, George Thompson
> > > > brought up the metaphor "get ones ashes hauled".
> > > >
> > > > 1) George provides some quotations below.
> > > >
> > > > 2) There's also "get your broom dusted" and "get your chimney swept
> > > > out." [Google hits, not documented below.]
> > > >
> > > > 3) Is there anything in the etymology or history besides the
> > > > (obvious?) image of "chimney" as either (or both) phallus and vagina?
> > > >
> > > > Joel
> > > >
> > > > >From: George Thompson <george.thompson at nyu.edu>
> > > > >To: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at att.net>
> > > > >Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:05:17 -0400
> > > > >Subject: Re: Sexual meaning of chimney and chimney sweeps in the
> 18th
> > > > > century?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >See that spider : climbing up the wall
> > > > >Hunt some place : to get his ashes hauled
> > > > >Wiley Barner, 1927
> > > > >
> > > > >Lord when you see the spider : Lord a-running up and down the wall
> > > > >He must be going somewhere : great God to try and have his ashes
> hauled
> > > > >Frank Stokes, 1927
> > > > >
> > > > >and a half dozen from the 30s
> > > > >
> > > > >A concordance to Pre-War blues:
> > > > >http://www.dylan61.se/taft.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >George A. Thompson
> > > > >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> > > > >Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at att.net>
> > > > >Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:10 am
> > > > >Subject: Re: Sexual meaning of chimney and chimney sweeps in the
> > > > >18th century?
> > > > >To: George Thompson <george.thompson at nyu.edu>
> > > > >
> > > > > > At 7/17/2010 12:37 PM, George Thompson wrote:
> > > > > > >Which is, to refer to an old expression I've only encountered in
> > > > > > >blues lyrics: to get one's ashes hauled = to get laid.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New to me. I Googled "ashes hauled" -- and then added
> > > > > > "chimney". It's in slang and (the) urban dictionaries, there's
> > > > > > speculation on its etymology, references to blues lyrics, and
> even
> > > > > > the question "For example, what exactly happens when you get your
> > > > > > "ashes hauled" or your "broom dusted"?" and the expression "Get
> your
> > > > > > chimney swept out."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Google Books has nothing earlier than 1981 ("Slang and euphemism:
> a
> > > > > > dictionary of oaths, curses, insults, ...", No preview).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there anything in this besides the (obvious?) "chimney" as
> either
> > > > > > (both) phallus and vagina? Should we round up the usual suspects
> on
> > > > > > ADS-L and propose a research project into the earliest
> appearance?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joel
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
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> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
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> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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