"wh" words - was "no subject" (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tue Jul 20 22:34:54 UTC 2010

Consider pairs such as "hue" vs. "you", which are distinguished by
most English-speakers.  Those with the distinction typically have
either a voiceless palatal approximant or a voiceless palatal
fricative in "hue", which is usually seen as the realization of an
underlying /hj/ sequence.

Pairs like "which" vs. "witch" are almost exactly analagous, except
that this time only a minority of English-speakers preserve the
distinction.  It still seems sensible to regard the voiceless
labiovelar approximant or fricative in "which" as the realization of
an underlying /hw/.

Another problem with using "wh" is that some Indian English speakers,
especially those who speak Marathi, actually produce a breathy-voiced
or aspirated /w/-like sound in such words, presumably as the result of
a spelling pronunciation.

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "wh" words - was "no subject" (UNCLASSIFIED)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I would think that "wh" would suffice in notation to indicate a "voiceless w" as well as a "hw".  I've always assumed "~hw indicated an ~h before a ~w.
>
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Paul Johnston
>> Subject: Re: "wh" words - was "no subject" (UNCLASSIFIED)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> It's usually simply a voiceless "w" among people who have it in the
>> States, as far as I know.
>>
>> Paul Johnston
>>
>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 4:42 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: Re: "wh" words - was "no subject" (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I wonder. Is the aspiration when saying "wh" as ~hw at the lips
>>> where the ~w is formed so the ~w is unvoiced, or at the back in the
>>> throat where ~h is formed? If it's at the lips, that would make it
>>> an aspirated unvoiced ~w rather than a ~h followed by a ~w.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC"
>>>> Subject: Re: "wh" words - was "no subject" (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>>> Caveats: NONE
>>>>
>>>> I guess I'm in the minority, then, because I pronounce most of them
>>>> with
>>>> a "hw" instead of a "w".
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Tom Zurinskas
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:08 PM
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>> Subject: "wh" words - was "no subject"
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> ---------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>> Subject: "wh" words - was "no subject"
>>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>>
>>>>> All the following words beginning with "wh" are said to be
>>>>> pronounced
>>>>> ~hw in first pronunciation in the McMillan Dictionary for Children
>>>>> 2001, then as ~w in second pronunciation.
>>>>>
>>>>> whack
>>>>> whale
>>>>> whaling
>>>>> wharf
>>>>> what
>>>>> whatever
>>>>> wheat
>>>>> wheel
>>>>> wheelbarrow
>>>>> wheelchair
>>>>> wheeze
>>>>> whelk
>>>>> when
>>>>> whenever
>>>>> where
>>>>> whereabouts
>>>>> whereas
>>>>> whereupon
>>>>> wherever
>>>>> whey
>>>>> which
>>>>> whichever
>>>>> whiff
>>>>> while
>>>>> whim
>>>>> whimper
>>>>> whine
>>>>> whinny
>>>>> whip
>>>>> whippoowill
>>>>> whir
>>>>> whirl
>>>>> whirlpool
>>>>> whirlwind
>>>>> whisk
>>>>> whisker
>>>>> whiskey
>>>>> whistle
>>>>> white
>>>>> whiten
>>>>> whitewash
>>>>> whittle
>>>>> whiz
>>>>> whoa
>>>>> why
>>>>>
>>>>> thefreedictionary.com also gives ~hw as first pronunciation for
>>>>> these
>>>>> words in their notation, but listening to the pronunciation I don't
>>>>> hear it. "Wheat, which, whip, whisk" spoken at the clickable
>>>>> "icon" I
>>>>> believe have ~hw, but the speakers at the US and UK clickable
>>>>> flags do
>>>>> not for any of these words.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that folks that say ~hw for these words are in the vast
>>>>> minority, and ~hw should be 2nd pronunciation if it's still spoken
>>>>> at
>>>>> all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>>>>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -------------
>>>>> ----------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ----------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Imagine "whoa" as "hwoa"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or "who" as "hwo"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Self continues to be the measure of all things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back in 1961, I got into a shouting match with a barracksmate from
>>>>>> Cincinnat[@] who'd more-or-less rhetorically asked,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "You ever notice that, in words that start with wh-, like "[w]at,"
>>>>> the
>>>>>> -h- is never pronounced?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Say *[hw]at*?!!! That was one of the most ignorant remarks that I'd
>>>>>> ever heard! [w]y, I knew people in *Saint Louis* from Cincinnat[@]
>>>>> and
>>>>>> they didn't be saying any "[w]at"! (Even though they did say
>>>>>> "Missour[@]." But that was okay. My Texan grandmother used
>>>>>> "Missour[@]," too.) They pronounced it the *right* way: "[hw]at"!
>>>>> Just
>>>>>> as *I* did!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Stewie (cf. The Family Man) says, "Will [hw]eaton."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"--a strange complaint
>>>>> to
>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>
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