Another [not] suspect quote: Ira Hayes

Thu Jul 22 22:01:13 UTC 2010

Jon Lighter wrote:
>My three cents is that it's too depressing
>to have been reported in a newspaper in 1945 (coming from an Iwo Jima
>flag-raiser) or, frankly, at any time before the Vietnam War.

Quotation confirmed to 1945 (microfilm).

The Boston Daily Globe.  [A slightly different name from today's;
Continued by: Boston Globe]
Boston, Mass. : Globe Pub. Co., 1872-1960.
Microfilm. Wooster [sic], O. Proquest, microfilm reels ; 35 mm.
Harvard, Widener, holds 1940-1960.
Monday, May 14, 1945, page 9, col. 7.  [Article begins on col. 4]

Hub Throng Thrills 3 Iwo Heroes
Turnout in Rain Inspiring, Say Flag Raisers
By Hy Hurwitz
(Former Marine Corps Combat Correspondent)
[I think this means he had been a Marine, not merely a civilian correspondent.]

[start of article, col. 4:]  The people of Boston were an inspiration
to the three survivors of the historic flag-raising on Iwo Jima.

[col. 7:]  But these men will never forget their many friends who
will never enjoy the fruits of the victory.  "How can I feel like a
hero," said Hayes, "when only five men in my platoon of 45 survived,
when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape death of
[sic; presumably should be "or"] injury."

[The illustration above has the caption "WAR TROPHIES---Jet bomb and
captured Germans passing down Tremont st. during yesterdays' Seventh
War Loan parade."]

[A digression to the sports section, page carelessly not recorded by
me (but before page 9), col. 1.]
Beecees' Lucas saw Suribachi Flag Raising; Got That Funny Feeling.
By Jerry Nason.  [Nason died in 1986.]
... The Marine survivors of that pictorial and historical incident
are in Boston today."

[col. 4:]  ... said Pfc. Rene Gagnon of Manchester, N. H., and his
buddies---Pfc Ira "The Chief" Hayes of Bapcule, Ariz., a Pima Indian,
full blood, and PhM 2c John Bradley of Appleton, Wis., concurred--- ...

[Is John Bradley related to the James Bradley of "the bestseller
_Flags of Our Fathers_, by James Bradley and Ron Powers
(2000)"?  (Who have quoted it accurately -- except for the of/or.)]

Joel

At 7/22/2010 02:59 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote:
>Thanks for your response Jonathan. The appearance of an anti-heroic
>quote of this type in the Boston Globe before August 1945 while the
>war continued is interesting and surprising. (This assumes that it did
>indeed appear.)
>
>I am unable to check the citation with my current resources, but some
>list member may have access to the full ProQuest database of the
>Boston Globe or microfilm of the appropriate date, so here is the
>information.
>
>The quote attributed to Ira Hayes appears on page 112 of the following book:
>
>Cite: 1995, Shadow of Suribachi : Raising the Flags on Iwo Jima by
>Parker Bishop Albee, Jr. and Keller Cushing Freeman, Praeger,
>Westport, Connecticut. (Verified on paper)
>
>Clearly, Hayes did refuse the title of hero, however. "How can I feel
>like a hero," he added, "when only five men in my platoon of 45
>survived, when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape
>death or injury." [note 85] There were undeniable signs that the young
>Marine felt remorse, if not guilt, that he had survived to be heralded
>a hero while so many of his comrades never left Iwo Jima alive.
>
>The reference notes about the quote appear on page 123.
>
>Note 84 says "Boston Globe, May 14, 1945.
>Note 85 says "Ibid."
>
>Both authors have doctorates in history; Parker B. Albee is a
>Professor of History at the University of Southern Maine. Keller
>Cushing Freeman is a poet and former Professor.
>
>I have access to two databases with the Boston Globe. There is a
>substantial gap between the coverage of the two: ProQuest Historical
>Newspapers Boston Globe: March 4, 1872 - Dec. 31, 1927. The modern
>Boston Globe database starts around 1960. This database gap may be
>commonplace.
>
>If a list member does check this quotation I hope that he or she will
>share with the list the name of the article, the author, the page
>number, and any other additional context of interest.
>
>Alternatively, negative evidence, e.g., a failed search within the
>full ProQuest Boston Globe database would be valuable too.
>
>Garson
>
>On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter
><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Another suspect quote: Ira Hayes
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > My university's ProQuest Boston Globe turns up nothing remotely like the
> > quote. In fact, the first time the Globe seems to hav mentioned
> Hayes at all
> > was in connection with a controversial TV drama called "The American" aired
> > in 1960 (with Lee Marvin as Ira Hayes).
> >
> > Tony Curtis starred as Hayes in the 1962 film "The Outsider."
> >
> > It is conceivable that the line came from one of these heavily
> fictionalized
> > dramas, but IMDb doesn't indicate it's in "The Outsider." It doesn't list
> > "The American."
> >
> > My two cents is that the quote is too long and detailed to be included in
> > the script of a TV show in 1960.  My three cents is that it's too
> depressing
> > to have been reported in a newspaper in 1945 (coming from an Iwo Jima
> > flag-raiser) or, frankly, at any time before the Vietnam War.
> >
> > JL
> > On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Garson O'Toole
> > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: Another suspect quote: Ira Hayes
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Jonathan Lighter raises an intriguing question about a quotation
> >> attributed to Ira Hayes, one of the soldiers that famously raised the
> >> second flag on Iwo Jima:
> >> > "How could I feel like a hero when only five men in my platoon of 45
> >> > survived, when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape
> >> > death or injury?"
> >>
> >> I have located a book that contains a citation for this quotation to
> >> the Boston Globe in 1945. However, I do not think that I have access
> >> to a database containing the Boston Globe in 1945. ProQuest databases
> >> have many flavors. PR from the firm trumpets a database with Boston
> >> Globe coverage from 1872 to 1979. But access is carefully rationed
> >> because knowledge is dangerous.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> >> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> > Subject:      Another suspect quote: Ira Hayes
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Thousands of RGs for this quote about heroism and fame, attributed to
> >> Cpl.
> >> > Ira Hayes, one of the Iwo Jima flag-raisers.  Some recent sources claim
> >> tha=
> >> > t
> >> > Hayes said it "to reporters" shortly after he attended the dedication of
> >> th=
> >> > e
> >> > Iwo Jima Memorial at Arlington in 1954:
> >> >
> >> > =93How could I feel like a hero when only five men in my platoon of 45
> >> > survived, when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape death
> >> or
> >> > injury?=94
> >> >
> >> > Widely cited since, including at a DoD site
> >> > http://www.defense.gov/specials/nativeamerican01/flag.html   I can find
> >> no
> >> > evidence of the quote's existence (GB, NewspaperArchive, ProQuest, TIME)
> >> > before it appeared on p. 19 of the bestseller _Flags of Our Fathers_, by
> >> > James Bradley and Ron Powers (2000), written 45 years after Hayes's
> >> > premature death.
> >> >
> >> > The book includes source notes, but no source is given for this quote.
> >>  The
> >> > context suggests that Bradley was innocently paraphrasing what
> >> > Hayes presumably thought about being acclaimed as a hero.
> >> >
> >> > JL
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --=20
> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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