Another [not] suspect quote: Ira Hayes

Fri Jul 23 01:45:06 UTC 2010

Excellent work, Joel. After Garson alerted me to the ref., I still failed to
find the quote in ProQuest. Then I ran a test with "Pacific" and "May 1 -
September 1, 1945," and learned that the word had never appeared in the BG
between those dates.  "Marines" and "Japanese" gave similar results.

Thus there is at least one huge gap in ProQuest's BG collection.
Yet another pitfall of electronic research.

Am pleasantly surprised at the Globe's candor.

James Bradley is John Bradley's son.

JL

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Another [not] suspect quote: Ira Hayes
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Jon Lighter wrote:
> >My three cents is that it's too depressing
> >to have been reported in a newspaper in 1945 (coming from an Iwo Jima
> >flag-raiser) or, frankly, at any time before the Vietnam War.
>
> Quotation confirmed to 1945 (microfilm).
>
> The Boston Daily Globe.  [A slightly different name from today's;
> Continued by: Boston Globe]
> Boston, Mass. : Globe Pub. Co., 1872-1960.
> Microfilm. Wooster [sic], O. Proquest, microfilm reels ; 35 mm.
> Harvard, Widener, holds 1940-1960.
> Monday, May 14, 1945, page 9, col. 7.  [Article begins on col. 4]
>
> Hub Throng Thrills 3 Iwo Heroes
> Turnout in Rain Inspiring, Say Flag Raisers
> By Hy Hurwitz
> (Former Marine Corps Combat Correspondent)
> [I think this means he had been a Marine, not merely a civilian
> correspondent.]
>
> [start of article, col. 4:]  The people of Boston were an inspiration
> to the three survivors of the historic flag-raising on Iwo Jima.
>
> [col. 7:]  But these men will never forget their many friends who
> will never enjoy the fruits of the victory.  "How can I feel like a
> hero," said Hayes, "when only five men in my platoon of 45 survived,
> when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape death of
> [sic; presumably should be "or"] injury."
>
> [The illustration above has the caption "WAR TROPHIES---Jet bomb and
> captured Germans passing down Tremont st. during yesterdays' Seventh
> War Loan parade."]
>
> [A digression to the sports section, page carelessly not recorded by
> me (but before page 9), col. 1.]
> Beecees' Lucas saw Suribachi Flag Raising; Got That Funny Feeling.
> By Jerry Nason.  [Nason died in 1986.]
> ... The Marine survivors of that pictorial and historical incident
> are in Boston today."
>
> [col. 4:]  ... said Pfc. Rene Gagnon of Manchester, N. H., and his
> buddies---Pfc Ira "The Chief" Hayes of Bapcule, Ariz., a Pima Indian,
> full blood, and PhM 2c John Bradley of Appleton, Wis., concurred--- ...
>
> [Is John Bradley related to the James Bradley of "the bestseller
> _Flags of Our Fathers_, by James Bradley and Ron Powers
> (2000)"?  (Who have quoted it accurately -- except for the of/or.)]
>
> Joel
>
> At 7/22/2010 02:59 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote:
> >Thanks for your response Jonathan. The appearance of an anti-heroic
> >quote of this type in the Boston Globe before August 1945 while the
> >war continued is interesting and surprising. (This assumes that it did
> >indeed appear.)
> >
> >I am unable to check the citation with my current resources, but some
> >list member may have access to the full ProQuest database of the
> >Boston Globe or microfilm of the appropriate date, so here is the
> >information.
> >
> >The quote attributed to Ira Hayes appears on page 112 of the following
> book:
> >
> >Cite: 1995, Shadow of Suribachi : Raising the Flags on Iwo Jima by
> >Parker Bishop Albee, Jr. and Keller Cushing Freeman, Praeger,
> >Westport, Connecticut. (Verified on paper)
> >
> >Clearly, Hayes did refuse the title of hero, however. "How can I feel
> >like a hero," he added, "when only five men in my platoon of 45
> >survived, when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape
> >death or injury." [note 85] There were undeniable signs that the young
> >Marine felt remorse, if not guilt, that he had survived to be heralded
> >a hero while so many of his comrades never left Iwo Jima alive.
> >
> >The reference notes about the quote appear on page 123.
> >
> >Note 84 says "Boston Globe, May 14, 1945.
> >Note 85 says "Ibid."
> >
> >Both authors have doctorates in history; Parker B. Albee is a
> >Professor of History at the University of Southern Maine. Keller
> >Cushing Freeman is a poet and former Professor.
> >
> >I have access to two databases with the Boston Globe. There is a
> >substantial gap between the coverage of the two: ProQuest Historical
> >Newspapers Boston Globe: March 4, 1872 - Dec. 31, 1927. The modern
> >Boston Globe database starts around 1960. This database gap may be
> >commonplace.
> >
> >If a list member does check this quotation I hope that he or she will
> >share with the list the name of the article, the author, the page
> >number, and any other additional context of interest.
> >
> >Alternatively, negative evidence, e.g., a failed search within the
> >full ProQuest Boston Globe database would be valuable too.
> >
> >Garson
> >
> >On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> ><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject:      Re: Another suspect quote: Ira Hayes
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > My university's ProQuest Boston Globe turns up nothing remotely like
> the
> > > quote. In fact, the first time the Globe seems to hav mentioned
> > Hayes at all
> > > was in connection with a controversial TV drama called "The American"
> aired
> > > in 1960 (with Lee Marvin as Ira Hayes).
> > >
> > > Tony Curtis starred as Hayes in the 1962 film "The Outsider."
> > >
> > > It is conceivable that the line came from one of these heavily
> > fictionalized
> > > dramas, but IMDb doesn't indicate it's in "The Outsider." It doesn't
> list
> > > "The American."
> > >
> > > My two cents is that the quote is too long and detailed to be included
> in
> > > the script of a TV show in 1960.  My three cents is that it's too
> > depressing
> > > to have been reported in a newspaper in 1945 (coming from an Iwo Jima
> > > flag-raiser) or, frankly, at any time before the Vietnam War.
> > >
> > > JL
> > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Garson O'Toole
> > > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > >> Subject:      Re: Another suspect quote: Ira Hayes
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Jonathan Lighter raises an intriguing question about a quotation
> > >> attributed to Ira Hayes, one of the soldiers that famously raised the
> > >> second flag on Iwo Jima:
> > >> > "How could I feel like a hero when only five men in my platoon of 45
> > >> > survived, when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape
> > >> > death or injury?"
> > >>
> > >> I have located a book that contains a citation for this quotation to
> > >> the Boston Globe in 1945. However, I do not think that I have access
> > >> to a database containing the Boston Globe in 1945. ProQuest databases
> > >> have many flavors. PR from the firm trumpets a database with Boston
> > >> Globe coverage from 1872 to 1979. But access is carefully rationed
> > >> because knowledge is dangerous.
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> > >> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >> > Subject:      Another suspect quote: Ira Hayes
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Thousands of RGs for this quote about heroism and fame, attributed
> to
> > >> Cpl.
> > >> > Ira Hayes, one of the Iwo Jima flag-raisers.  Some recent sources
> claim
> > >> tha=
> > >> > t
> > >> > Hayes said it "to reporters" shortly after he attended the
> dedication of
> > >> th=
> > >> > e
> > >> > Iwo Jima Memorial at Arlington in 1954:
> > >> >
> > >> > =93How could I feel like a hero when only five men in my platoon of
> 45
> > >> > survived, when only 27 men in my company of 250 managed to escape
> death
> > >> or
> > >> > injury?=94
> > >> >
> > >> > Widely cited since, including at a DoD site
> > >> > http://www.defense.gov/specials/nativeamerican01/flag.html   I can
> find
> > >> no
> > >> > evidence of the quote's existence (GB, NewspaperArchive, ProQuest,
> TIME)
> > >> > before it appeared on p. 19 of the bestseller _Flags of Our
> Fathers_, by
> > >> > James Bradley and Ron Powers (2000), written 45 years after Hayes's
> > >> > premature death.
> > >> >
> > >> > The book includes source notes, but no source is given for this
> quote.
> > >>  The
> > >> > context suggests that Bradley was innocently paraphrasing what
> > >> > Hayes presumably thought about being acclaimed as a hero.
> > >> >
> > >> > JL
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --=20
> > >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > >> truth."
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

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