"Restaurant" (re message from Barry Popik)

Herb Stahlke hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
Mon Jun 14 21:50:47 UTC 2010 

Is anything known of when an English spelling pronunciation replaced
the French pronunciation?  I recall in one of the Lord Peter Wimsey TV
productions several actors used a pronunciation with a final open
syllable and final nasalized low back rounded vowel.  Since these
productions were done in the 80s or 90s, were the actors making up a
pronunciation or reflecting the way the word was pronounced but upper
class BE speakers in the 20s?

Herb

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Benjamin Zimmer
<bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Restaurant" (re message from Barry Popik)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A further comment on "restaurant" is in John Simpson's latest quarterly note:
>
> ---
> http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions1006.html
> Readers of last quarter's publication notes will know that, with the
> aid of numerous readers' contributions, we had identified 1821 as the
> year in which eating houses named ‘restaurants’ started to spring up
> in Britain and America. I'm grateful to those of you who have taken up
> the challenge to find still earlier references. The current version of
> the entry includes two early outliers: one, from 1815, describing
> coffee-houses and ‘an excellent restaurant’ in Paris; the other, from
> 1806, using the word in a translation of the ‘Regulations of the
> Literary Society of Antwerp’.
> The word is recorded in its modern sense in French from at least 1771,
> so it is possible the other earlier uses may be discovered. But at
> present the establishment of such establishments in New York and
> London can still be dated to 1821.
> ---
>
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Benjamin Zimmer
> <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> From John Simpson's note on the latest OED quarterly update:
>>
>> ---
>> http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions1003.html
>> The final stages of work on _restaurant_ witnessed a string of
>> surprises. First, the earliest use moved back from 1826 (a description
>> of the Haymarket in London) to 1823 (the Morning Chronicle of 7 July,
>> noting a new eating house in Paris). As we neared the date set for
>> transferring the data to the dictionary's web site, an earlier
>> quotation from 1821 was submitted – this time from New York (the
>> Evening Post for 6 July). But by now it seemed that the earliest
>> references, clustered around 1821 and 1823, were for the spelling
>> _restaurat_. At the last moment, there was a suggestion of a proposed
>> 1766 quotation from Boswell's journal of his ‘Grand Tour’ on the
>> continent, for ‘restaurant-keeper’. That would have upset the
>> applecart. I'm grateful to John Overholt of the Houghton Library at
>> Harvard, who checked the original manuscript and found that Boswell
>> uses the word ‘traiteur’, which was helpfully anglicized by Boswell's
>> editor in 1955. After the data was transferred to the web site, a
>> further 1821 predating (from England, this time, has come to light:
>> spelling _restaurat_; in a description of Paris). We'll have to wait
>> for July for that to go online. We can't stop the presses every time a
>> new discovery is made!
>> ---
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > The following message shows that Boswell's manuscript had "traiteur"
>> > -- a fact perhaps already known to the OED gnomes.  (The image is
>> > quote clear.)  Do we need to follow up and ask Mr. Overholt for the
>> > earliest edition that said "restaurant"?  (If there was one.)
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> > The manuscript for this journal is among the Boswell papers that have
>> > been digitized. It looks like Boswell didn't say "restaurant-keeper"
>> > at all, but "traiteur":
>> > http://130.132.81.65/RIP_CURATOR/size4/B0096/1201876.jpg (page image)
>> > http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl_crosscollex/getSETS.asp?ITEM=2039118
>> > (full journal for Dec. 1765-Jan. 1766)
>> > John Overholt
>> > Assistant Curator
>> > The Donald and Mary Hyde Collection of Dr. Samuel Johnson/
>> > Early Modern Books and Manuscripts
>> > Houghton Library
>> > Harvard University
>> > http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/hydeblog
>> >
>> > At 2/4/2010 11:07 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>> >>This quotation has been known to, and under investigation by,
>> >>the OED for some time now. Though we're still not sure, it
>> >>appears that this passage may originally have been written by
>> >>Boswell in French, and the English translation is later.
>> >>
>> >>I'll try to remember to post a followup, once the checking
>> >>has been completed.
>> >>
>> >>Jesse Sheidlower
>> >>OED
>> >>
>> >>On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 10:16:52PM -0600, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:
>> >> > Below is a message sent by Barry to several ads-l members and
>> >> which I now share with the entire list.
>> >> > On a general note, it's always good to be reminded ofo the great
>> >> value of Barry's website.
>> >> >
>> >> > G. Cohen
>> >> >
>> >> > ________________________________
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Barry Popik [mailto:bapopik at aol.com]
>> >> > Sent: Wed 2/3/2010 9:11 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: The first French "restaurat" was in New York, in 1821?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I posted this here and OED doesn't record it?
>> >> > --Barry Popik
>> >> > ...
>> >> > ...
>> >> >
>> >> http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/restaurant_refectory/
>> >> > ...
>> >> > ...
>> >> > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0203C&L=ADS-L&P=R2680
>> >> > Subject:         Restaurant (1766)
>> >> > From:    [log in to unmask]
>> >> <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?LOGON=A2%3Dind0203C%26L%3DADS-L%26P%3DR2680>
>> >> > Reply-To:        American Dialect Society <[log in to unmask]
>> >> <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?LOGON=A2%3Dind0203C%26L%3DADS-L%26P%3DR2680>
>> >>  >
>> >> > Date:    Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:36:33 EST
>> >> > Content-Type:    text/plain
>> >> >    OED and Merriam-Webster have 1827 for "restaurant," although
>> >> OED's entry notes that it started in Paris in 1765.  There's been a
>> >> new book on the subject that I'll have to check.
>> >> >
>> >> > BOSWELL
>> >> > ON THE GRAND TOUR
>> >> > ITALY, CORSICA, AND FRANCE
>> >> > 1765-1766
>> >> > edited by Frank Brady and Frederick A. Pottle,
>> >> > Yale University
>> >> > McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc., NY
>> >> > 1955
>> >> >
>> >> > Pg. 257 (1766, THURSDAY 2 JANUARY):
>> >> >    A restaurant keeper just by Le Blanc's furnished me dinner and
>> >> half a bottle of wine for three livres, and Etienne, my _valet de
>> >> place_, was very active and had the name of "l'eveille."
>> >> > ...
>> >> > ...
>> >> > Subject:         Re: The first French "restaurat" was in New York, in 1821?
>> >> > From:    Jesse Sheidlower <[log in to unmask]
>> >> <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?LOGON=A2%3Dind1002A%26L%3Dads-l%26P%3DR2732>
>> >>  >
>> >> > Reply-To:        American Dialect Society <[log in to unmask]
>> >> <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?LOGON=A2%3Dind1002A%26L%3Dads-l%26P%3DR2732>
>> >>  >
>> >> > Date:    Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:48:19 -0500
>> >> > Content-Type:    text/plain
>> >> > Parts/Attachments:      Parts/Attachments        text/plain
>> >> <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A3=ind1002A&L=ADS-L&E=0&P=107010&B=--&T=text%2Fplain;%20charset=us-ascii>
>> >> (15 lines)
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 11:08:19AM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>> >> > > (Shades of "Ratatouille"!)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > For "restaurant", the OED's earliest citation is 1827.  (Still a "2nd
>> >> > > edition 1989" entry, so the gnomes likely have mined to a lower
>> >> > > stratum by now.  And perhaps to be updated shortly; in December the
>> >> > > "revised range" arrived at "reputeless.")
>> >> >
>> >> > We'd mined back to 1823, so this is still two years better. Thanks!
>> >> >
>> >> > Jesse Sheidlower
>> >> > OED
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >
>> >>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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