Dialects of poetry (Old Norse, Middle English, Shakespearean, etc.)

[Herb Stahlke]

And it was also early *18th c., not 17th.  You're probably right that
Handel had his own German accented English in mind.  Some of the
Coronation Anthems force stresses on words that are distinctly
non-English, even for the time.  Conductors I've sung these with have
attributed such cases to Handel's incomplete mastery of English.

However, the chorus that performed the premier of Messiah in Dublin
would have been largely Anglo-Irish, and they would probably not have
emulated Handel's pronunciation.  I don't know if he even trained the
choir for the performance.

Herb

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:13 AM, David Wake <dwake at stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       David Wake <dwake at STANFORDALUMNI.ORG>
> Subject:      Re: Dialects of poetry (Old Norse, Middle English, Shakespearean,
>              etc.)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>If an authentic period performance of Messiah uses early 17th c.
>>nstruments, a chorus no more than 16, and counter-tenors, then why
>>not also use early 17th c. Dublin pronunciation?
>
> Getting a bit OT here, but one could answer that Handel (who was not
> himself a native English speaker) presumably did not write Messiah
> with a contemporary Irish accent in mind.
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.com> wrote:
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>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Dialects of poetry (Old Norse, Middle English, Shakespearean,
>>              etc.)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I've raised similar questions in choral diction discussions.  Period
>> performance goes to great lengths to emulate not only the kinds of
>> instruments and styles of playing used but also the temperaments, the
>> ensemble sizes, and other details--except for pronunciation.  If an
>> authentic period performance of Messiah uses early 17th c.
>> instruments, a chorus no more than 16, and counter-tenors, then why
>> not also use early 17th c. Dublin pronunciation?  When I've raised
>> this question on choral conducting lists, the response was that I was
>> trying to parody period performance, which sometimes needs parody, as
>> with Joshua Rifkin's performance of the Mass in B minor with a vocal
>> quintet.  A couple of years ago I served on a doctoral committee in
>> music performance.  The candidate was doing a period performance
>> manual to Cantata 150.  He had taken a few linguistics courses, so in
>> the course of his research and writing I encouraged him to look into
>> the question of pronunciation.  He researched it and contacted a
>> number of conductors who all insisted that the only pronunciation
>> acceptable in singing Bach was Modern High German choral diction,
>> which differs from spoken pronunciation largely in the use of an
>> alveolar trill rather than a uvular fricative for /r/.
>>
>> Oddly, while this is true for English and German texts, it's not for
>> Latin texts.  With a Latin text, the country of origin is important.
>> Carmina Burana is sung with Austro-German Latin pronunciation, the
>> Verdi Requiem with Roman, and contemporary Finnish compositions with
>> Latin texts in Finnish Latin pronunciation.  Choirs will be retrained
>> in Latin pronunciation for each variety.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:09 AM, Charles Doyle <cdoyle at uga.edu> wrote:
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>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Charles Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Dialects of poetry (Old Norse, Middle English, Shakespearean,
>>>              etc.)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Related questions could be raised in still broader terms, with even a synchronic dimension: To what extent, when we read poetry (or prose), are we obliged to emulate the dialect of the poet--or "hear" the poetry that way in our minds? Do Yeats's verses need to sound Irish, Dylan Thomas's Welsh? Do Eliot's poems gain from sounding British (what dialect of British?) or Midwestern-American? Should one not proficient in a poet's dialect refrain from reading the poem at all?! What does a reader owe to the author? How far can the author--or the author's biographical circumstances--control the finished text?
>>>
>>> --Charlie
>>>
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